Rolex's greatest achievement?

[GradyPhilpott]

Originally Posted by Deaf Stan

With respect, he didn't. Unless you can give me the quote and the source?



Rolex and Smiths both supplied watches for the '53 Expedition but the only watch that Hillary said he took to the top was the Smiths. Rolex themselves confirmed that. (Hell, if Rolex had reached the summit they'd have made a big noise about it. Think Omega and the moon. Instead their references to Hillary / Everest are very coy and circumspect. They imply; we infer.)

Did you read my links?

I'll make it easy for you.

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/fo...e-pics-details

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/--8uBEM8IZ8...restadvert.jpg

And you could provide some citations yourself to backup your assertion.

I read what is apparently the source of your information. It is an OP/ED piece that is full of speculation and very little evidence.

https://www.outdoorjournal.com/featu...versy-to-rest/

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[Deaf Stan]

Originally Posted by rtalk

Ok. First of all Omega productionalized the Co-Axial --- but keep in mind that it was George Daniels that really pushed it. Omega couldn't have done it without Daniels.

Second of all --- let's not forget the very reason why we wrist watches is because of Rolex. Prior to Rolex, yes, wrist watches existed, but they were not reliable at all (water would destroy them) and only where worn as jewelry instead of time keeping devices. Rolex coming to market with the Oyster case and that was a game changer. Yes, they did some marketing with Mercedes Gleitze to swim the channel, but if Rolex didn't design that Oyster case -- it would have failed miserably.

So in summary, Rolex's biggest achievements 1) Oyster Case, 2) being the driving force of the transition from pocket watches to wrist watches.

and one more thing --- quality wise Omega is not on par with Rolex. They made a lot of cost cutting decisions that hurt the quality of their watches. Biggest examples of cost cutting that come to mind is using PLASTIC CAMS in chronographs instead of metal column wheels.

Plastic? Plastic?! Delrin, please! And I think it wasn't actually a cost cutting measure but done for the properties of the material? Or so Swatch, sorry Omega, said at the time! But, yes, it looks cheap.

As for the co-axial, I'm not really convinced it's all that to be honest. You might be aware of the rumour that Daniels offered it to Rolex first but they kept him waiting so he walked out and took it to Omega. Not sure if the story is true but it's a very Rolex sort of thing to do. Guess they can't even see someone without them going on a waiting list.

[Deaf Stan]

Originally Posted by GradyPhilpott

Did you read my links?

I'll make it easy for you.

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/fo...e-pics-details

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/--8uBEM8IZ8...restadvert.jpg

And you could provide some citations yourself to backup your assertion.

I read what is apparently the source of your information. It is an OP/ED piece that is full of speculation and very little evidence.

https://www.outdoorjournal.com/featu...versy-to-rest/

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OK, let’s do this.

The watch in the Beyer museum: provenance? A period-correct OP with a paper hang tag attached isn’t exactly watertight. I reached out to Beyer to ask them if they could tell me more about, e.g. where it had come from, serial number, markings etc. No reply.

Maybe it was Hillary’s, maybe not. If it was his is it from the 1952 Swiss expedition or the 1953 British one? (Hillary was on both.)

If you look here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke_R...annel=Hodinkee

at 05:30 you will see that Mr Beyer himself says he doesn’t know whether it was Hillary or Tenzing who wore the watch.

Compare that with the Smiths De Luxe in the Science Museum in London which was gifted by Hillary himself as the watch he wore to the summit in ‘53.

Impeccable provenance.

And in that famous Smiths advert Hillary is quoted as saying he “carried” a Smiths De Luxe watch “to the summit”.

What did he say about Rolex? Nothing. Or at least nothing about taking (wearing, carrying, whatever) one to the top of Everest.

Next, that article in Outdoor Journal, “an OP/ED piece that is full of speculation and very little evidence.”

Except it quotes an exchange of letters from October 1953 in which Rolex say:

“Sir Edmund Hillary was, in fact, only wearing one watch at the summit and that a Smiths watch. We congratulate Smiths on the fact that their Smiths De Luxe ordinary wind wristwatch reached the summit with Sir Edmund Hillary.”

That might be “very little evidence” but it’s pretty conclusive.

Again, you said

Originally Posted by GradyPhilpott

Hillary said that he wore the Rolex to summit Everest

No he didn't. Unless you can give me the quote and the source? That’s all I want. I’ve never seen Hillary make that claim but you are saying he did. What did he say? Where?

Quote and source, please.

[Brian Page]

Marketing and brand awareness / elevation.

[Cheapside Genie]

Originally Posted by Deaf Stan

You might be aware of the rumour that Daniels offered it to Rolex first but they kept him waiting so he walked out and took it to Omega. Not sure if the story is true but it's a very Rolex sort of thing to do. Guess they can't even see someone without them going on a waiting list.

It was Patek.

https://youtu.be/rSzaViIzOm0

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/wo...e-museum-patek

[Doc Savage]

Originally Posted by JRell

Making it fashionable to wear a submariner with a tuxedo. Even though I am not sure I would do it.

*Convincing buyers it's fashionable

Originally Posted by ilovewatches999

It’s wild to think at one time a person would debate paying the same price for a Rolex or Omega, but then again Reebok had 86% of the shoe market at one time.

Aside from marketing, the oyster case has to be their “crowning” achievement.

Even more surprising to pay MORE for a Rolex than an Omega

Originally Posted by Cheapside Genie

...Anyway, I’ve seen an interview with a watchmaker that said their most impressive aspect, in his opinion, is Rolex’s ability to mass produce (around 1m watches a year) such high quality and durability. He said, in comparison to other brands he’s worked on, their components are manufactured with such reliable precision that the movements almost fall into place when he’s working on them...

In all fairness, this is true. Mass producing tiny machines with such tight tolerances and attention to detail is no small feat.

[Deaf Stan]

Originally Posted by Cheapside Genie

It was Patek.

https://youtu.be/rSzaViIzOm0

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/wo...e-museum-patek

Thanks! Much appreciated. (Although from what he says it doesn't rule out Rolex refusing him; sounds like a lot of people did.)

Interesting, too, that PP kind of ran it into the sand. As if innovation is a dirty word.

"Not invented here [Switzerland]" = no good, no thanks. But the lever escapement is, er, an English invention (Thomas Mudge iirc)

I hadn't seen that Hodinkee article before, but I have spent many happy hours in the Clockmakers' Museum. To tie two topics together, it's there that you can see the watch Hillary wore to the summit of Everest in 1953. I note that the hands have been set to 11:30, the time he reached the top. A nice touch.

https://collection.sciencemuseumgrou...lever-movement

[Cheapside Genie]

Originally Posted by Deaf Stan

Thanks! Much appreciated. (Although from what he says it doesn't rule out Rolex refusing him; sounds like a lot of people did.)

Interesting, too, that PP kind of ran it into the sand. As if innovation is a dirty word.

"Not invented here [Switzerland]" = no good, no thanks. But the lever escapement is, er, an English invention (Thomas Mudge iirc)

I hadn't seen that Hodinkee article before, but I have spent many happy hours in the Clockmakers' Museum. To tie two topics together, it's there that you can see the watch Hillary wore to the summit of Everest in 1953. I note that the hands have been set to 11:30, the time he reached the top. A nice touch.

https://collection.sciencemuseumgrou...lever-movement

Yeah PP dragged it out for years. I had heard that he’d fitted it into a Rolex, sent it in for a service for a laugh and they sent it straight back saying it was a fake with non Rolex parts. Never seen that substantiated, but sounds like Rolex.

Correct, most key watch components were invented by Englishmen or by Breguet (French). But the Swiss invented cheap movement mass production while costly English watchmaking sadly disappeared (apart from Frodsham).

The Horological dept at the Science museum is great.

Good Hilary trivia...

[Deaf Stan]

I had an idea that GD used an Omega (Speedmaster? Seamaster?) as the donor watch which he first modified with the co-ax?

Maybe Roger had that one and he had George had the Patek?! Sounds about right. ;-)

Might have that wrong though.

Or maybe they were just Omega and/or Valjoux movements that he experimented on and the PP was the first actual cased-up, wearable watch?

Either way it's a cool development but I'm not really sure it adds much except some unnecessary complexity. Nice USP for Omega though. I wonder if Rolex (or Patek or anyone else) wishes they'd had it instead.

[Cheapside Genie]

Originally Posted by Deaf Stan

I had an idea that GD used an Omega (Speedmaster? Seamaster?) as the donor watch which he first modified with the co-ax?

Maybe Roger had that one and he had George had the Patek?! Sounds about right. ;-)

Might have that wrong though.

Or maybe they were just Omega and/or Valjoux movements that he experimented on and the PP was the first actual cased-up, wearable watch?

Either way it's a cool development but I'm not really sure it adds much except some unnecessary complexity. Nice USP for Omega though. I wonder if Rolex (or Patek or anyone else) wishes they'd had it instead.

Well they say the Patek nautilus was the first. GD wore it for 10 years. It’s in the science museum.

It doesn’t require lubrication (although I think some is used in practice) making it theoretically more accurate with longer service intervals; but you’re right it is a little more complex. But then so is a tourbillion, and it really is unnecessary. Time will tell (so to speak) but all I can say is my coaxial omega is the most accurate mechanical watch I own.

I think it comes down to watch company culture/pride. Rolex and Patek possibly felt their image might be damaged by using something that wasn’t perfected in house whereas it was good timing for Omega, that wasn’t doing quite as well. Perfect the tech, slap it on the dial and charge a premium. Nice.

[Omarion07]

Rolex achievements
- First wristwatch to carry the Swiss Certificate of Chronometric Precision.
- First fully sealed watch case against moisture and dust, the oyster case.
-First automatic winding wristwatch.
-First watch to have the date jump instantaneously at midnight, The datejust.
-First watch with a date magnifier, the cyclops.
-First watch to display the weekday and date on the dial, the Daydate.
-First wristwatch to show a second time zone, GMT master.
-Rolex was probably the brand that single handedly saved the manual/automatic watch industry during the Quartz crisis. And so much more technical innovations.

You can pick any of these as their greatest achievements.

[Cheapside Genie]

Originally Posted by Omarion07

Rolex achievements
- First wristwatch to carry the Swiss Certificate of Chronometric Precision.
- First fully sealed watch case against moisture and dust, the oyster case.
-First automatic winding wristwatch.
-First watch to have the date jump instantaneously at midnight, The datejust.
-First watch with a date magnifier, the cyclops.
-First watch to display the weekday and date on the dial, the Daydate.
-First wristwatch to show a second time zone, GMT master.
-Rolex was probably the brand that single handedly saved the manual/automatic watch industry during the Quartz crisis. And so much more technical innovations.

You can pick any of these as their greatest achievements.

Hmm. The first automatic wristwatch was a Fortis, designed by John Harwood. They sold 30,000 of them before Rolex started making them in 1931.

First watch with a date was the Mimo-Meter Gerard Perrigaux in 1930. Rolex launched the Datejust in 1945.

Glycine came out with the first gmt watch in 1953 that allowed you to track two time zones. Rolex did add invent the gmt hand when they launched the gmt master in 1954.

They are masters of perfecting and mass producing others ideas.

[Deaf Stan]

Originally Posted by Omarion07

- First fully sealed watch case against moisture and dust, the oyster case.

Not that, either. See the OP. (Although the claim for the Oyster being the first waterproof case is all over Rolex's website.)

You list has been whittled down and is looking pretty thin.

You're half right about the self-winding thing: Rolex invented the automatic winding rotor (Harwood used a different system).

[Omarion07]

Never said the datejust just was the first watch with a date. It's the first to have the date jump instantaneously at midnight.

[Cheapside Genie]

Originally Posted by Omarion07

Never said the datejust just was the first watch with a date. It's the first to have the date jump instantaneously at midnight.

That’s true you didn’t.

No doubt Rolex are brilliant innovators but they are also masters of making carefully worded claims that implicitly suggest they have come up with everything themselves.

Hopefully we’ll see something innovative from them today!

[Verdi]

It has to be the invention and patent of the “wishlist”

[polarinda]

widening the lugs for no reasons.

[HogwldFLTR]

Simply forming his company as a foundation and avoiding taxes for eternity. Without that Rolex would be under pressure to compete and produce which is really missing from their equation of success!!!

https://atelierdegriff.com/2018/05/1...rf-foundation/

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Deaf Stan

Plastic? Plastic?! Delrin, please! And I think it wasn't actually a cost cutting measure but done for the properties of the material? Or so Swatch, sorry Omega, said at the time! But, yes, it looks cheap.

As for the co-axial, I'm not really convinced it's all that to be honest. You might be aware of the rumour that Daniels offered it to Rolex first but they kept him waiting so he walked out and took it to Omega. Not sure if the story is true but it's a very Rolex sort of thing to do. Guess they can't even see someone without them going on a waiting list.

Now the George Daniels escapement its been available to the market for 30 plus years George Daniels had attempted to introduce his escapement to the Swiss industry,and Omega,Patek,Piguet,Zenith and even Rolex had prototypes in 1986 and 1989. There are many reasons why these companies entertained Daniels and many reasons why they decided to pass on the escapement. It seems to me that in the main it was an issue of expense to retool and develop the escapement for already built series of production movements and that it was then a unknown quantity, which was made in one-offs for the connoisseur to try in those early years.Now this Daniels escapement needed to be oiled correctly to work 100% and many of the watch industry did not follow Daniels instructions to the letter,most did not follow his advice for the VPH (vibrations per hour).Now when Patek decided to try his escapement and three wristwatch sized prototypes were made to test by Patek thenselves.

Now the movement drawings were discussed and Daniels saw one big stumbling block, the proportion of the extra driving wheel to his escapement.Now Patek rejected his notion,and even in the face of Daniels working,the Patek provided movement prototype.By 1982 his prototype was cased and dialed from the Patek factory. He says he gave the watch daily use for twelve years, when the self winding mechanism failed,properly from lack of maintenance. It was not serviced to test the effectiveness of the escapement over a ten year period. The Daniels escapement functioned perfectly,now the Patek analysis was quite critical and the prime fault was in the gears, which Daniels had mentioned at the beginning of the project.

So why is the Daniels escapement not used in many of the high end watch houses.Well IMO I imagine it may have been as simple as "Not Swiss Made." or may turn out to be too complicated to make on a mass production scale or re-tool machines in-house?.But now Omega for one, plus a few more have made it work to a very high standard indeed.So today when you think of the humble wrist watch,basically changing little since John Harrison's days almost 300 years ago.With tweaks to the basic escapement over the past 250 years,I wonder what would have happened if Daniels was alive in John Harrison's days.Well for me Daniels escapement must be one of the horological breakthroughs of the century but not Swiss made and that was a big stumbling block IMHO .But lets remember 40 plus years ago when the Japanese,took on the Swiss,and almost destroyed the complete Swiss watch industry with the heretic quartz.And in many cases the Japanese mechanical watches like the Seiko Grand,were equal,and in most cases with better accuracy, and product finish to equal any of the Swiss.

[Deaf Stan]

Originally Posted by GradyPhilpott

Hillary said that he wore the Rolex to summit Everest

Seriously, if you have proof of that then I'd like to see it.

If not, concede the point.

I'd actually be delighted if he did make such a claim. There's room for more than one "first" watch to the top. But I don't think he did.

[Happy.Hades]

Knocking it out of the park with their 2021 announcement!

It’s almost as if, they forgot about the watches and wonder event till last week, and had to put together something quick. “Um, let’s change up some bracelets, two tone this, add meteorite to that”

I have to admit that this is the price of not needing to push the limits, cuz you are comfortably sitting at the top and people are happy to pay two to three times the value of your product to have one. I don’t blame you rolex, It would make any company lazy.

[GradyPhilpott]

Originally Posted by Deaf Stan

Seriously, if you have proof of that then I'd like to see it.



If not, concede the point.



I'd actually be delighted if he did make such a claim. There's room for more than one "first" watch to the top. But I don't think he did.

I provided links to my sources, one from a Smiths advertisement.


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[Deaf Stan]

Originally Posted by GradyPhilpott

I provided links to my sources, one from a Smiths advertisement.

I know. I read and re-read them very carefully. None of them supports your assertion that

Originally Posted by GradyPhilpott

Hillary said that he wore the Rolex to summit Everest

To the best of my knowledge (and yours, it would seem) he's never said any such thing.

Edit: please see post #63

Rolex conceded that “Sir Edmund Hillary was, in fact, only wearing one watch at the summit and that a Smiths watch. We congratulate Smiths on the fact that their Smiths De Luxe ordinary wind wristwatch reached the summit with Sir Edmund Hillary.”

But if you have a quote from Hillary which gainsays that I really would love to see it. Seriously.

[HORNBLOWER]

Their Marketing strategy.

[Cheapside Genie]

Originally Posted by Cheapside Genie

Hopefully we’ll see something innovative from them today!

Alas the answer to that was a firm no.

[jarecki]

Has got to be the Deepsea (I’m only saying that as I’m picking mine up tomorrow)...