Change in Philosophy

[Stales33]

I am a Rolex newbie and for my first one I went grey. I read up on the horror stories of trying to get one from an AD, visited one and was sadly disappointed on how I was treated (although you guys warned me exactly how it would go and it did). I knew what I wanted and have disposable income so I pulled the trigger. Paid about 10% over MSRP after tax that I would have had to pay. That being said I understand why some people will not pay over MSRP. Finances are deeply personal and everyone has their own situation but the heart wants what it wants so I went for it!

[Gab27]

It's always been my mindset that paying some premium for enjoyment is completely acceptable, at least within reason relative to what personally works for me. I would not pay $20,000 extra for a Daytona but I didn't mind paying a few extra bucks for a Sub.

Whether or not any of these watches are 'worth it' (at MSRP, below, MSRP, or above MSRP) is completely subjective.

[jojosnr]

I will not buy anything over the MRSP. I am not happy if I dont got some discount off the MRSP.

However, when it is time for me to clear my collection, I will be happy that there are folks out there who would.

I am not a flipper.

[fogby]

Originally Posted by Master_Grogu

Well I would argue if you change your mindset, ask yourself: do you have principle and do you have character?

Because to me, and my principles, I would rather forfeit the ownership of a pure luxury good than pay more than the lowest price to which I could obtain it. Money is the materialization of your time, and greys do not deserve a single minute of my life.

Your comment on time is essentially why I've gone grey. I value my time too much to waste time playing the AD game. I live about an hour away from the closest AD, and I do not feel the AD deserves my time - especially if it means regular visits to kiss their butt.

[mountainjogger]

OP, I concur that Mercedes Benz is a classic song. But at least to my ears, the point of the lyrics, and the tone evoked by Janis Joplin does not lend itself to a meanifgul a distinction between paying retail for a luxury item and gray mark up.

Put differently, the average Joe (or Joe Hill) would have as hard of a time understanding dropping over 8 grand or on a sub no date from an AD versus paying 12 from a gray.

And I must say, at least from the moral of the song, I fail to see the distinction also.

[Mystro]

Originally Posted by fogby

Your comment on time is essentially why I've gone grey. I value my time too much to waste time playing the AD game. I live about an hour away from the closest AD, and I do not feel the AD deserves my time - especially if it means regular visits to kiss their butt.

That and I get significantly better service from our trusted sellers even when I was buying below msrp from them. They know their stuff and know how picky I am with my requirements.

[DJ2020]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Nope. First off most of these watches aren’t even really worth what they are asking for retail in my opinion. I can’t fathom paying above retail for any of them. Not even a little bit. It’s bad enough paying taxes on them at the AD. Now having said that I don’t care what other people spend their money on. Actually it’s none of my business. But it is getting pretty crazy. I mean the Daytona, AP 15500 and the king of them all the 5711. Wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy out of control. I said it in another thread but people aren’t overpaying for these watches because of the horology aspect of it.

I agree. Asking price is too much as is, much less grey prices.

[Kevin of Larchmont]

Originally Posted by PaulChronometer

I wouldn't mind paying a reasonable mark-up (reasonable regarding the added value provided by a grey dealer ­­­­­– say 5-10%), but current prices don't make sense, as they seem to be disconnected to the underlying value.

5-10% isn’t reasonable, it’s just what you want to pay. You wouldn’t enter into any kind of a retail business opportunity that operated on those kind margins, it’s not sustainable. There’s nothing unreasonable about profit.

[GradyPhilpott]

There is no reason at all to get scalped for any watch.

Watch collecting used to be a fun activity.

Now, it's just an amusement park of absurdities.

It's still fun, but only as a spectator sport.

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[Patton250]

Originally Posted by GradyPhilpott

There is no reason at all to get scalped for any watch.

Watch collecting used to be a fun activity.

Now, it's just an amusement park of absurdities.

It's still fun, but only as a spectator sport.

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Best post of this thread so far. You nailed it. Good grief man you nailed it.

[LA_LEC]

When I think of all the overpriced meals I have had and all the bar tabs I have had and what do I have to show for it...a few memories (if lucky). I would much rather put a few grand in and buy a watch now - not a year or two from now!

I do agree that You Only Live Once. Life it too short to wait for "the call" that might very well never come.

[DJTOSUB]

Originally Posted by mountainjogger

OP, I concur that Mercedes Benz is a classic song. But at least to my ears, the point of the lyrics, and the tone evoked by Janis Joplin does not lend itself to a meanifgul a distinction between paying retail for a luxury item and gray mark up.

Put differently, the average Joe (or Joe Hill) would have as hard of a time understanding dropping over 8 grand or on a sub no date from an AD versus paying 12 from a gray.

And I must say, at least from the moral of the song, I fail to see the distinction also.

Lots of interesting perspectives on this thread, however, you were the first and only to mention the Janis Joplin lyrics. IMO the distinction is significant as she was making a social comment about consumerism.

She calls it a song of great social and political import. It is viewed as a rejection of false satisfaction of money and materialism.

Interesting fact this was was the last song Janis Joplin recorded as she died from a drug overdose 3 days later. The lyrics were written at Vahsen's a Port Chester, NY bar.

I wonder how many folks on TRF even know who Janis Joplin is, or know any of her music?

[loftycomfort]

I won't pay a penny over retail* for any current production non-limited watch. There is no "philosophy". I'm just cheap.

* - the only time I paid over retail for a watch was for my CasioOak. I didn't know the actual MSRP and unknowingly paid the market premium. Shrug.

[asiparks]

Originally Posted by IR201

Fair enough, but I'm not referring to ability to flip, merely just the resilience of the mental perspective that "this is not an 18K watch, it is only worth ~12K", when said watch currently trades for around 40K.

When I'm buying watches, I still regard it as a $13K watch- both "retail value" and material value.
That the market values it at more makes no difference-if my budget were $18K, i'd be looking at different options and if I had $40K to spend on a watch, a Daytona wouldn't be anywhere on that list, be it SS or PM-
For me, it's just not in that competitive tier.

[bob sims]

Originally Posted by kaiserphoenix

Im not a buyer of grey if its above the retail price. The reason is just simply and this isnt limited to rolex but if a brand does not deem me "worthy" for whatever reason and don't want to sell me a watch, I just go to another brand. There are so many brands in the world and I value relationships that I make throughout my journey. Thankfully Rolex is a brand that still deems me worthy so i will continue to buy.

Anybody can be "worthy" at an AD-as long as they buy enough triple priced over actual value jewelry.

[Mendota]

Originally Posted by DJTOSUB

Lots of interesting perspectives on this thread, however, you were the first and only to mention the Janis Joplin lyrics. IMO the distinction is significant as she was making a social comment about consumerism.

She calls it a song of great social and political import. It is viewed as a rejection of false satisfaction of money and materialism.

Interesting fact this was was the last song Janis Joplin recorded as she died from a drug overdose 3 days later. The lyrics were written at Vahsen's a Port Chester, NY bar.

I wonder how many folks on TRF even know who Janis Joplin is, or know any of her music?

I recently watched a fantastic documentary on Janis Joplin. I don't remember what channel it was on, or if it was streaming. Boy was she talented. Growing up I was never a very big fan, but after watching this I have a completely new appreciation for her music and songwriting. Her death is really sad. I am going to mess the details up, but the night she died she called her best friend/writing partner/bandmate/lover and was just distraught on the phone with him. He tried to tell her it's all going to be OK and then they ended the call. In the documentary the guy said the biggest regret of his life was not telling her to stay right there and I will be on the very next flight to LA to see you and be together with you in person. Sure enough, that night she died.

Tragically, it's the exact same situation that happened to John Belushi. The Showtime documentary on John Belushi is fantastic. The night he died he called his best friend, Dan Akroyd, and they talked for hours. John was horribly depressed and sad about his career tanking and losing his wife, and Dan tried repeatedly to console him. Then they hung up. Sure enough, he woke up the next morning to the news that John died that night. Dan says in the documentary (and he choked up while saying it) that his biggest life regret was not telling John to stay put, I'll be on the very next flight to see you, and I have a screenplay I am writing that will change everything for you. Dan was writing Ghostbusters at the time and he created the part of Dr. Brinkman specifically for John. In the end Bill Murray played the part and it was a huge success, but I imagine John would have been awesome in that role.

[sinkholeninja]

There are many variables that are affecting people’s outlook towards luxury goods, and in particular Rolex. Social media, especially Instagram, is increasingly playing a huge role in boosting demand. Disposable cash due to pandemic has increased and on top of that capital markets have been on a tear last year, so folks have money to spend. Lastly, I’d argue that Rolex is seen as an assets class in itself, where folks who buy at MSRP are guaranteed to make money on it, even if the watch is being worn on daily basis.

[ferrissteve11]

It's a luxury; nonessential good at the end of the day. You pay to play - plain and simple.

[Robf52]

Originally Posted by Oxfordian

No watch is worth buying at over MSRP, if my AD cannot get what I want then I won’t buy.

However, I do understand that others think differently and are happy to pay what they see as a market rate, that’s fine it’s their money.

This. I've never paid over msrp and never will. That's just me and my philosophy of enjoying this hobby. Others have a different philosophy on how they spend their money, and that's ok.

[BrunoMalik]

I would never go gray. I dont want to pay a premium and i simply dont trust gray dealers. AD all the way.

[DJTOSUB]

Originally Posted by Mendota

I recently watched a fantastic documentary on Janis Joplin. I don't remember what channel it was on, or if it was streaming. Boy was she talented. Growing up I was never a very big fan, but after watching this I have a completely new appreciation for her music and songwriting. Her death is really sad. I am going to mess the details up, but the night she died she called her best friend/writing partner/bandmate/lover and was just distraught on the phone with him. He tried to tell her it's all going to be OK and then they ended the call. In the documentary the guy said the biggest regret of his life was not telling her to stay right there and I will be on the very next flight to LA to see you and be together with you in person. Sure enough, that night she died.

Tragically, it's the exact same situation that happened to John Belushi. The Showtime documentary on John Belushi is fantastic. The night he died he called his best friend, Dan Akroyd, and they talked for hours. John was horribly depressed and sad about his career tanking and losing his wife, and Dan tried repeatedly to console him. Then they hung up. Sure enough, he woke up the next morning to the news that John died that night. Dan says in the documentary (and he choked up while saying it) that his biggest life regret was not telling John to stay put, I'll be on the very next flight to see you, and I have a screenplay I am writing that will change everything for you. Dan was writing Ghostbusters at the time and he created the part of Dr. Brinkman specifically for John. In the end Bill Murray played the part and it was a huge success, but I imagine John would have been awesome in that role.

Great post. We all need to better understand the signs when someone is crying out for help.

[1William]

Interesting posts and view points. The thing is no one is wrong, they just have a different viewpoint from where they are. I currently buy all of my Rolex watches from Grey Dealers and have for some time, since all of the price craziness started. I am older, mid/late fifties, and have been into the hobby for 30 years. I have bought/sold/flipped/owned some great watches over the years and I have found that doing what makes me happy, within reason, is what is best for me. I do not get hung up on Grey Prices versus msrp as I can not buy at msrp on a consistent basis and I can not sell the watch, if I was to get one, without harming my relationship with my AD. The market has actually worked in my favor over the last few years as I have bought Grey for one price and sold grey for significant profits on most of the watches. I own a lot of watches, at least for me, 14 Rolex watches and an assortment of other brands mostly Omega, Tudor, Doxa and Seiko. I have fun with them all and when I get ready for something else, I find my best price from a Trusted Seller and do a deal, rinse and repeat. I have found ownership to be worth the price of admission on most watches.

[Mystro]

I think threads like this help new potential owners understand what they are in for and philosophies how to address a acquisition. There are a lot of ways to go about this and it’s really helps prioritize what you value most and that is a moving target for everyone.

[ROBERT1183]

If grey market was 5-15% markup i would most likely just go grey and not play the games but 75-100% markup is a bit absurd. Unfortunately if people are willing to pay that the market will continue to command those markups

[zengineer]

I wouldn't pay a premium at all just to get a watch a few months faster. I wouldn't pay over a 20% premium to get one now if I thought it was likely I could get it within a few years at retail. I did pay close to that to get my 41mm Sub a year or so ago when the premium was a bit lower than today. No AD would give me a realistic chance at retail.

I have sold plenty of watches as I rotate through different ones on my way ro building a collection but am not a flipper and have only made money on a few used watches that I happened to buy at a very good price and sell at a better price...and I happen to think that Rolex MSRP is a pretty good indicator of value.

So once we get above 20% over retail I lose interest...there are other brands. I like the pre-ceramic Daytona and would like to add a nice white dial 116520 at some point. But that's a $10-12k watch in my mind, not $20k. I guess I am fortunate to find the current SS/ceramic Daytona hideous so I don't need to pay attention to it...but my opinion is that it just plain is not a watch worth $35k, 30k, 25k and maybe not even $20k.


My 39mm Explorer is my most worn and favorite watch. I think I paid $6200 new a few years back...and that was from a flipper who paid about that at an AD and just decided he really didn't need another watch and was happy to get his money back. If I re all correctly I couldn't even buy one from an AD at that price once sales tax was added. I would do without if I had waited until now and have to pay $11k +.

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[scarlet knight]

Being old helps. I bought my entire Rolex collection before things went crazy. Really have no great desire for another one.