Rise of the Independents

[charger_vital]

Looks like the critics are recognizing the the "rise of the independents" in luxury sport watches... and determining a hierarchy (brands mentioned below)... But do independents have what it takes to maintain a bigger slice of the pie? Here's what "they" are saying; what say you?

"The Rise" in General
Best Quote: Tired of mass-produced Swiss watches, collectors are increasingly turning to the independent sector to find watches that are rarer, more complex, handmade and exquisitely artistic. Rob Corder investigates how effective digital marketing and tiny production quantities are combining to help many independent watchmakers, and the retailers that sell them, achieve record sales.

Ferrier, Parmigiani, and Czapek
Best quote: "I was delighted to get my hands on what can only be described as the next grail watch and – one could argue – much cooler than a Nautilus. Step forward please, Laurent Ferrier with their new Sport Auto Blue."

Parmigiani, Czapek, Ferrier Moser, FPJ, and GF
Best Quote: These watches are not inexpensive. And rightly so, considering the amount of work and intricacies that has gone into the production of these watches. But if we are comparing to the higher-tier brands such as those within the “holy trinity”, then some of the watches in today’s article are relatively well-priced after all.

Czapek, Ferrier, and Urban Jurgensen
Best Quotes: Now in regard to the “integrated sports watch throne”, technically, like the Lange Odysseus, the bracelet sits flush to the case – it is not integrated into it. But also like the Odysseus, the Urban Jürgense One ref. 5421 has become a mandatory point of conversation when it comes to worthy alternatives to watches like the Nautilus... Laurent Ferrier watches are known for going where Patek Phillipe does not dare to go, while also upholding a quality of build and finish that is equal, if not better, than the legendary brand.


FPJ, Roger Smith, Ferrier, Chaykin, and GF

Not limited to sports models.. but still a good read...

Best Quote: Major brands produce this kind of work as well, but independent watchmakers hold a special place in fans' imaginations: they represent creative freedom and uncompromising visions that can be manifested both technically and artistically and result in anything from the traditional to the highly avant-garde.

[enjoythemusic]

Me? Am tired of the same rehashing over and over again. With Rolex we expect this, sure, yet the now outdated old-school 'trinity' brand list desperately needs to be updated. This begs the question why has the timepiece industry refused to update the outdated 'Holy Trinity' list?

That aside, mainstream brands and Big Box Independents (20k+ annual production) are now 'designing to a price' at times, so they'll never make truly spectacular 'best effort' timepieces (below a certain level, such as simple time-only pieces).

They say the excellent is the enemy of good, and perhaps many enthusiasts are seeing the outstanding craftsmanship, creativity, and capability of small independents. Thanks to brilliant independents, we enthusiasts realize what is truly possible, and so it is easy to see cost-cutting measures by Big Box (?? Independant ?? ) brands.

imho the industry has changed in many ways over the past decade, as has the desires of modern enthusiasts.

Enthusiasts now have many opportunities from reasonably-priced custom pieces of your chooseing from Torsti Laine to still-affordable creations from Czapek, Kari, Moser, FPJ, Armin Strom, etc.

MB&F is an entity unto itself, and am very grateful for Max & Friends for their creativity far above and beyond the typical horological 'language'.

jmho

[beshannon]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

This begs the question why has the timepiece industry refused to update the outdated 'Holy Trinity' list?

This is just my view. Much emphasis is placed on history, tradition and innovation. Lange does not have an unbroken history for their company, Rolex has simply not been around long enough.

I am not saying I agree, but there are few that can cite all three qualifiers. Perhaps the holy trinity has shifted meaning to the past glory and we need a new grouping to focus on the innovation and precision of timekeeping going forward.

One of the things that drew me to Czapek was not only their history and association with Patek but that beautiful movement and dial on the Antarctique

[Dalaruan]

Let's not forget the history of the current holy trinity. Patek and VC are still producing crazy stuff every year and although they're probably exclusive to a few people but they do count.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by Dalaruan

Let's not forget the history of the current holy trinity. Patek and VC are still producing crazy stuff every year and although they're probably exclusive to a few people but they do count.

Fair enough, but the question is do these "other" independents have the stay power to remain as a credible force in the market?

[Ichiran]

I feel like this quote:

"Major brands produce this kind of work as well, but independent watchmakers hold a special place in fans' imaginations: they represent creative freedom and uncompromising visions that can be manifested both technically and artistically and result in anything from the traditional to the highly avant-garde"

apply to the recent release of the Van Cleef & Arpels Heures Florales watch too. VC&A is under Richemont conglomerate and they are given 5 years to R&D this special movement. There are 12 flowers on the dial, and at every hour, each flower opens randomly denoting 1 hour. The minutes are at the side of the case. This watch draws inspiration from Carl Von Linné’s book, Philosophia Botanica. I don't remember seeing anything like that before. How cool is that coming from Richemont.

IMG_11052022_200003_(1080_x_800_pixel).jpg

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Dalaruan

Let's not forget the history of the current holy trinity. Patek and VC are still producing crazy stuff every year and although they're probably exclusive to a few people but they do count.

But there's a problem.

Ask yourself, is the workmanship and quality the same of these 'crazy stuff' pieces as their regular production pieces? Or is there a 'sliding scale' of sorts? Are some Trinity brands designing movements with the (heavy-handed accounting) goal of containing costs at the expense of craftsmanship?

i feel quality should be extremely high for ALL products across a company's product offerings, NO EXCEPTIONS! A sliding scale of craftmenship is not acceptable if a company wants to be part of the new Modern Holy Trinity.

Virtually any company can hire out the best of the best craftspeople to help them make statement pieces. One-offs or a few chosen special pieces does not a Holy Trinity company make imho.

And here's where things get interesting, as some of the best watchmakers are either going out on their own, or are the Friends part of MB&F or along those lines. We're living in very interesting times for horology. It'll be interesting to see where this goes a decade from now.

But the question still remains, will the horology industry choose a proper Modern Holy Trinity, or keep the long-outdated one that not a single person to date has been able to chime in with SOLID FACTS about exactly who, and how, those brands were chosen over SIXTY YEARS AGO. What was the criteria back then? Who exactly voted in choosing this now long outdated list? Anyone know? Anyone at all? Bueller? Bueller?

Originally Posted by charger_vital

Fair enough, but the question is do these "other" independents have the stay power to remain as a credible force in the market?

A very fair question, and only over time will the story be told. So we won't really know until at some point in the future. Of course some of these pieces could also become incredibly respected for what they are, horology art at the finest of levels.

Quality and creativity of artistic expression transcends....

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I feel like this quote:

"Major brands produce this kind of work as well, but independent watchmakers hold a special place in fans' imaginations: they represent creative freedom and uncompromising visions that can be manifested both technically and artistically and result in anything from the traditional to the highly avant-garde"

apply to the recent release of the Van Cleef & Arpels Heures Florales watch too. VC&A is under Richemont conglomerate and they are given 5 years to R&D this special movement. There are 12 flowers on the dial, and at every hour, each flower opens randomly denoting 1 hour. The minutes are at the side of the case. This watch draws inspiration from Carl Von Linné’s book, Philosophia Botanica. I don't remember seeing anything like that before. How cool is that coming from Richemont.

Attachment 1291285

VC&A is a special breed.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

i feel quality should be extremely high for ALL products across a company's product offerings, NO EXCEPTIONS! A sliding scale of craftmenship is not acceptable if a company wants to be part of the new Modern Holy Trinity.

I understand you have been pushing for MB&F to be a new Trinity but their recent MAD1 red's (or blue for that matter) quality doesn't impress me much. You said NO EXCEPTIONS! in cap so I don't know how this gels with your support of them as the new Trinity with that quality I am seeing. An ebauche movement can still be finished to the highest degree, like some iterations of the Lemania. I'm fully aware of its humble pricing but you did say NO EXCEPTIONS!

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I understand you have been pushing for MB&F to be a new Trinity but their recent MAD1 red's (or blue for that matter) quality doesn't impress me much. You did said NO EXCEPTIONS! in cap so I don't know how this gels with your support of them as the new Trinity with that quality I am seeing. An ebauche movement can still be finished to the highest degree, like some iterations of the Lemania.

I would agree except that the MAD1 is not an MB&F watch

[_speedmaster_]

As much as I love MB&F and what Max does, I wouldn’t put them in a Trinity. The whole concept of MB&F is partnerships, meaning they rarely design and build their movements (the basic LM101 was their first in-house movement) and instead partner with other watchmakers to design something. This does result in great watches and collaborations between watchmakers are great for the industry, a reason I love what Max has done for horology.

BUT…it is a factor to consider when you put them up against the likes of say DeBethune which has more innovative patents than anyone in recent years while manufacturing and producing everything in-house.

All that said, out of all the modern independents to consider in the Trilogy it should be Urwerk. If you ask Max (said as much in an interview) and others, Urwerk paved the way for independents to be unique and innovate.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

All that said, out of all the modern independents to consider in the Trilogy it should be Urwerk. If you ask Max (said as much in an interview) and others, Urwerk paved the way for independents to be unique and innovate.

Very interesting take

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I understand you have been pushing for MB&F to be a new Trinity but their recent MAD1 red's (or blue for that matter) quality doesn't impress me much. You said NO EXCEPTIONS! in cap so I don't know how this gels with your support of them as the new Trinity with that quality I am seeing.

Hmmm, totally my bad as am not 'pushing' for MB&F per se, yet yes to at least to be considered. Overall i feel a new list should be created, yet it's up to whoever creates the rules, and of course those who 'vote' to decide. i had two different magazine editors discuss things with me about the trinity.

Months ago did mention changing Wiki, and think that's what freaked some people within the industry out. Look, am just a guy online.

It's the long-overdue / oversight of the 'voting industry' and delays to make a new list that is failing consumers and enthusiasts alike. It is obvious the 60-year-old list is long out of date, and think many agree on this.

And we're 10000% cool, yet M.A.D. is not part of MB&F. Max has said as much, and he's got plans for the M.A.D brand. So being part of some fabled list does not mean success either, as many brands not on any list are doing quite well. i do predict Max's M.A.D. brand will be highly successful in and of itself.

MB&F is fine on their own, they don't 'need' to be on a list to prove their inherent value. While i've never met Max, have a feeling there's no Big Ego there to even care that much about being on some list.

Some other brands have Big Egos and, sadly, their ego plus being on some outdated list does not directly equate to higher quality products. Some could argue certain brands have been 'resting on their laurels'.

Besides, being on a list is the opposite of being a raver. And if you're not familiar with the 10 Commandments about being a Raver...

An ebauche movement can still be finished to the highest degree, like some iterations of the Lemania. I'm fully aware of its humble pricing but you did say NO EXCEPTIONS!

100000% agree, and M.A.D. is not and should not be considered as part of some fabled Trinity. Sure their first effort, the M.A.D.1, is mind-boggling (especially considering the retail value), yet odds are whatever rules are made would exclude M.A.D. from the voting.

PS: You can't have 'a revolution' if 'the music' isn't right. Know what i mean boys? Enjoy the music

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

It's the long-overdue / oversight of the 'voting industry' and delays to make a new list that is failing consumers and enthusiasts alike. It is obvious the 60-year-old list is long out of date, and think many agree on this.

I think you need to be more outside the box on this one. Forget “replacing” the “trinity” it is what it is…. and instead create a new/ modern moniker.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

I think you need to be more outside the box on this one. Forget “replacing” the “trinity” it is what it is…. and instead create a new/ modern moniker.

Please send that as an email to as many timepiece editors as you can and horology organizations. This goes for ALL reading this. Let your voice be heard.

i've already done that, and it sparked some very interesting (private) discussion. You may be surprised how many magazine editors feel as we do, yet do they have the chutzpah to actually do it?

[PFmicro]

Parmigiani Fleurier are doing exceptional things currently.

This whole subject of the holy trinity isn’t being approached in the correct way. It exists in a fixed state, the term coined to refer to those three brands. It’s not a fluid list to be updated.
Independents need not be concerned about being part of it. Rather, they will create , by their own efforts and successes their own standing, alone or together.

[enjoythemusic]

+1 PF, coming on strong

Agree provided they put a 'Circa 1960 Rating' so people know when it was bestowed upon them by ????? and the reason they qualified is ?????. This provides both the company and enthusiasts with more concise and transparent conditions of the rating. Am still waiting for someone to explain how / why they were chosen, and who chose them. But yeah, I'm beating a 60-year-old 'dead horse', she deserves to be properly buried as the 1960s are long before many modern enthusiasts were born(!).

Agree independents have nothing to be concerned about, their efforts in the art of horology speak for itself.