An interesting read about my country

[Goodwatch]

I've thoroughly enjoyed reading this, a view on my own country. Perhaps you will also:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/03/ma...ewanted=1&_r=2

[Taffi Abernathy]

I was struck by the sense of humanism which seems to pervade more Dutch transactions/interactions. To cite some examples, mid-wives are more the norm in the Netherlands, while most babies here are born in hospitals, parents receive childcare compensation and vacations are at least 4 weeks long, incredible. Also, GPs make housecalls to the infirmed and elderly. I know of one geriatrician personally who makes housecalls, and he is considered quite a phenomenon in my neck of the woods. Insurance companies cannot reject someone due to a particular medical condition? Unheard of here. Clearly, your government is much more adept at synthesizing very human concerns and problems with financial matters. All too often, people get lost in the shuffle here. Yes, there is an ethic which encourages people to excel, often at obscenely inflated personal and societal costs. Great article which focuses on the importance of balance and a society working together with institutions to bring about the greatest good to its people. Thought-provoking and highly educational.

[jdc]

I had a Dutch employee a few years ago who used to say that outsiders perception of the nation as a liberal used to annoy. She said that this was very true of Amsterdam but generally Holland was very conservative nation.

[Goodwatch]

Under the surface we are a very complicated nation with deep rooted social problems. The conservative part is true, to an extend. Conservative in the way that in small towns and villages people still keep an eye on each other. Help each other. Know each other. Newcomers are frowned upon and there are villages where you will stay an outsider until you die.

And the author of this article has a one-sided view on civilisation here. The 52% tax for example. We don't pay 52%, but 52% over the last bracket. All those state-subsidised extras only apply if your are below a set income level. The funding of school books only became practice last year, I had to pay over 600 Euro out of my own pocket.

The past 10 years has seen a hardening and polarisation of Dutch society that sends chills down your spine. The 'easy going' seventies have seeded underlying problems that surfaced a decade ago. Everything seemed to be OK, no, HAD to be OK. This has produced a generation and a general attitude that differs 180 degrees from what is perceived in above article.

In the sixties and the following decades we've had an enormous influx of foreign workers who thought would live here on a temporary basis. We thought so as well. They never left. But because they thought they would return, they and the following generation, never rooted in our society. There are people from that first generation that still don't speak Dutch! We don't live with each other but alongside each other.

Like in every country all those problems concentrate in the major cities and our government has done little to change this. In this respect, the U.S. seem to do better. One of the biggest disappointments in my own country is that we seem unable to give people who aren't born here (with the emphasis on non-Western immigrants) a home. We are doing something fundamentally wrong and I mean this. If you ask an Iraqi cab driver in New York, who has been there only one year, what he is, he'll answer: an American from Iraq. If you ask a Moroccan or Turkish immigrant who has been living here the better part of his life what he is, he'll answer: I'm Moroccan (or Turk). Never the answer is: I'm Dutch and this continues right to this very day. Even third generation (full Dutch) citizens will answer the same. I'm ......... (fill in the mother country).

[jdc]

Thanks Frans that is an interesting insight

[Taffi Abernathy]

Frankly, the author did make aspects of residing in the Netherlands sound like a panacea. You might consider sending the N.Y. Times some of the information stated in your post to correct/refute some of inaccuracies in the article. As an American, what I like about this country is that a foreigner could arrive here with virtually nothing (or one can be born into less than optimal conditions here), and with hard work and perserverence, experience success without bounds. What I dislike about living here is at times, is a sort of "every person for themselves" mentality which engenders narcissism, the antithesis of a sense of community. No nation or government is without its faults but examining differences and incongruities certainly makes for interesting discussion. . .

[Goodwatch]

It does make for an interesting discussion indeed. But it is not all doom and gloom of course. I'll get back on that later, we're off for lunch in town. To end this for now: what really made me think over the current state of how my country has 'progressed' is the following observation. More and more of our elders, that law abiding generation who rebuilt our torn nation after WWII, have started jay-walking and crossing red lights! Now this may seem a bit preposterous to mention but to me this is a clear sign that the fine nation that I knew from my childhood is dead and buried.

[Jimbits76]

I'm still upset about Orange Willy claiming our throne.

J

[Jimbits76]

Reading more about Orange Willy it doesn't seem so bad.

Despite the shock of a Dutch man being in charge he did dislike the French and his mortal enemy was Louis XIV so he can't have been too bad.

Also when put into context, a Dutch chap being there couldn't possibly be as bad as a German woman and a Greek man ruling merry old England could it??????????



J

[hba]

And your opinions reflect mine 100%

oftewel zeer op prijs gestelde post...

Moved 12 years ago and it is in many ways changed from the country I remember but I have to say Ik hou van Holland, or I love Holland

best, Herman

[Goodwatch]

Originally Posted by hba

And your opinions reflect mine 100%

oftewel zeer op prijs gestelde post...

Moved 12 years ago and it is in many ways changed from the country I remember but I have to say Ik hou van Holland, or I love Holland

best, Herman

Bedankt Herman

[Jimbits76]

My guess (I'm going out on a limb here) is that bedankt means Thank You!

J

[Goodwatch]

Originally Posted by Jimbits76

My guess (I'm going out on a limb here) is that bedankt means Thank You!

J

Correct!

[Jimbits76]

Woohoo

Learning the language one word at a time!

J

[KJacques]

Originally Posted by Goodwatch

I've thoroughly enjoyed reading this, a view on my own country. Perhaps you will also:

"For that matter, even if you are unemployed you still receive a base amount of vakantiegeld from the government, the reasoning being that if you can’t go on vacation, you’ll get depressed and despondent and you’ll never get a job.

Such things are easy for an American to ridicule"

This american finds a lot to commend an attitude like that. I am not a socialist, and I really don't see a socialist mindset in this type of concern towards the emotional well-being of your countrymen.

My wife worked for a Dutch couple who imported some of your beautiful and exotic flowers for us. They and everyone they employed from Holland were the most compassionate, kind and genuine people I have ever met. And years after they quit the business and returned to Holland, they continued to keep up and correspond.

Although I've not yet been to your country, I feel that heaven is illuminated by the lighting in a Vermeer painting.

[Jimbits76]

Originally Posted by KJacques

"For that matter, even if you are unemployed you still receive a base amount of vakantiegeld from the government, the reasoning being that if you can’t go on vacation, you’ll get depressed and despondent and you’ll never get a job.

Such things are easy for an American to ridicule"

This american finds a lot to commend an attitude like that. I am not a socialist, and I really don't see a socialist mindset in this type of concern towards the emotional well-being of your countrymen.

My wife worked for a Dutch couple who imported some of your beautiful and exotic flowers for us. They and everyone they employed from Holland were the most compassionate, kind and genuine people I have ever met. And years after they quit the business and returned to Holland, they continued to keep up and correspond.

Although I've not yet been to your country, I feel that heaven is illuminated by the lighting in a Vermeer painting.

Kevin, when I grow up I want to be like you!



J

[Goodwatch]

Originally Posted by Jimbits76

Kevin, when I grow up I want to be like you!



J

And when I grow up, I want to be like you!

[Jimbits76]

Originally Posted by Goodwatch

And when I grow up, I want to be like you!

Everyone is having three day weekends...I'm supposing the Netherlands isn't!!!!!

Take Monday off, pour a martini and relax my friend!



You know whenever Anne and yourself fancy a trip to the UK you have a place to stay!

J

[KJacques]

Originally Posted by Jimbits76

Kevin, when I grow up I want to be like you!



J

What? A perpertual 18 year old? I can hear my wife laughing now.

[Goodwatch]

Originally Posted by Jimbits76

Everyone is having three day weekends...I'm supposing the Netherlands isn't!!!!!

Take Monday off, pour a martini and relax my friend!



You know whenever Anne and yourself fancy a trip to the UK you have a place to stay!

J

That's what you think! I'm in the middle of a four day weekend Yesterday, Ascension Day, was a public holiday. Today I took the day off.

[Goodwatch]

Originally Posted by Jimbits76

You know whenever Anne and yourself fancy a trip to the UK you have a place to stay!

J

Can we have a proper fry-up? And a good pint of ale for me?

[Jimbits76]

Would Anne allow it?????????



J

[Goodwatch]

Originally Posted by Jimbits76

Would Anne allow it?????????



J

She would but it depends on the atmosphere on a whole. So the best thing to do is that we go to a pub ourselves

[rainman_16]

My wife and I just returned from the Netherlands earlier this week and I was blown away by the country and its people.

There were many reasons for our trip: take my MIL back home for her 80th, meet my wife's side of the family I hadn't already met, visit a friend, tour a country (new to myself) and see where my wife spent her formative years.

We visited Amsterdam, Gouda, Nijmegen, Den Haag (and Sheveningen) and Utrecht . Compared to the culture/vibe of many North American cities, Nederlanders are so much more relaxed and pleasant to be around. My wife said throughout our trip that she wished she had never come back to Canada as a child because she loved it so much in Holland and I couldn't help but agree with her sentiments. We spoke at length with her aunts/unlcies/cousins and our friend from Toronto who has been living in Amsterdam for the last 3 years and we quickly came to the conclusion that should the opportunity arise, we would seriously think about relocating. We have little in the way of commitments here in Canada, other than work with easily transferable skills.

Both of us have travelled through a number of European countries, however Holland is the one country we both could see ourselves realistically living in.