RSC says it's "partially or entirely counterfeit"

[Spartyfan6262]

Originally Posted by WatchGuy1966

I can confirm this. Mom once brought a watch to the Dallas RSC and they said "It's a genuine Rolex, with an aftermarket dial and aftermarket bezel. We can service it and replace the dial and bezel with genuine Rolex parts, or you can take the watch back." She took it back.


However, this is your story - and I hope it ends well for you, esp on that piece. Wishing you the best

I had a similar experience. Bought my wife a 1990s datejust from a popular gray seller. When I had it serviced, the RSC said the bezel was genuine but not an original piece. My choices were to not have it serviced, or to pay to have the correct bezel fitted, which I did.

[SS Oyster]

Originally Posted by KY..

I would have that RSC who’s refusing service to provide in writing what parts they feel are fake/counterfeit.
Then take the watch back to Tourneau and have them correct it.

This


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dahh]

This really sucks

[Mcleaniac]

The number of commenters ITT who either don't understand or don't believe my account of events does not give me tremendous confidence, and it is exactly why I am proceeding carefully and want to weigh my options using informed advice before taking action. Let me try again to clear up misapprehensions:

1. I am aware of three times that the watch has gone in for service: 2019, May 2022, and October 2022.
2. For all three times, the watch was taken to an AD, who shipped it offsite for service.
3. The 2019 service went through an AD in St. John's, NL. As Brenngun noted, it went to the RSC in Toronto. The watch returned with an invoice for the service (Factory Service/Crown) that included a 7-digit "Invoice/Facture #). It also came back with the familiar green International Service Guarantee Card. That card came in a booklet, and it identified both the date of service AND a three-digit number (700) that apparently matches to the AD that sent the watch. It also came back with a baggie containing the crown and the gasket. The invoice/facture# was hand written on the baggie in red.
4. Because the watch was not mine when this service was completed, I cannot say with 100% certainty that any of the documents or the warranty card is authentic or accurate. I also cannot say that the prior owner put replacement parts in a baggie and wrote the invoice# on it himself. But until/unless I hear from Rolex that they have no record of this service (in which case the service invoice and warranty card were forged), I have to assume that all of the above is true.
5. For the May 2022 service, I personally took the watch to Tourneau, an AD, and I have emails memorializing my request that the service center return the replaced parts.
6. I do not know where Tourneau sent the watch, because I did not accompany the watch to the service center. I suspect it was in New Jersey, but I can't say for sure. The watch returned with the replaced parts in a baggie, and Tourneau issued the invoice for that repair via email. Once again, the watch also came back with a new International Service Guarantee Card.
7. On the third occasion, I took the watch to an AD in Washington, D.C., and (I have learned since) they sent it to Lititz, PA. It is at that RSC that the watch was flagged.
8. I do not possess the watch. I have requested that it go back to Lititz for re-evaluation and a detailed description of what parts are counterfeit.
9. That means I can't "take the watch to Tourneau" or send it to another RSC on my own. At least not until I re-take possession.

I appreciate that some or all of the above is not the course of action some of you would have taken, or does not reflect your personal experience. But I promise you that I am not wasting my time or yours by making up stories. I will try to put aside time to upload pictures, though I have to say the UI for this site is not great for that, and I'm guessing it will take some time to export them from my iPhone. And in any event, I don't know what pictures of the watch will achieve. Any user's opinion about service hands, or the kerning on a rail dial will just be a distraction from the main issue: RSC in Lititz says it's counterfeit. Toronto and Tourneau had no problems with it. I doubt I will resolve that issue by writing to Rolex Geneve to tell them that, after considerable debate, 4 out of 5 rolexforums users looked at some pictures online and agree that it is authentic ...

[Michael T]

Originally Posted by KY..

I would have that RSC who’s refusing service to provide in writing what parts they feel are fake/counterfeit.
Then take the watch back to Tourneau and have them correct it.

This squared.

I had an 1803 that I dropped off at Tourneau (then a Rolex AD) asking for a factory service. I then got an invoice/estimate for clean and repairs indicating a Tourneau facility. I then approached Tourneau asking what is going on. They then sent it to RSC Dallas and comped the Rolex RSC invoice. I would never use them again.

[frav]

This is very unfortunate, I hope you are able to settle.

[Mrngrz46]

Vintage Rolex, 3 AD involved in contradiction , partially counterfeiting….

The perfect storm.. I take pop corn…this is going to be interesting

[Mcleaniac]

Originally Posted by TimeLord2

Comment #7 and #18 then escalate if necessary to Genève via Tourneau or through your own hand. I am curious why you have waited a full month and half to resolve this? Google search keyword phrase "Rolex Genève Headquarters"… Good luck!

Originally Posted by TimeLord2

Comment #7 and #18 then escalate if necessary to Genève via Tourneau or through your own hand. I am curious why you have waited a full month and half to resolve this? Google search keyword phrase "Rolex Genève Headquarters"… Good luck!

Thanks for the Google lesson.

I'm not sure where you got the impression that I've "waited a full month and half [sic] to resolve this." If you're talking about the period between taking it to the AD in October and my first post in December, what can I say? It took roughly six weeks for Lititz to render its original "counterfeit" determination.

If you're asking about the period between now and the original post, I asked that the AD seek more information from Lititz and get back to me when they heard something. That was also on December 9. In the meantime, my father died, I had a planned holiday vacation several timezones away, and most retail stores and service centers closed for at least some period over Christmas and New Years' Eve. Given all of that and the prior six-week turnaround, I consider it a minor miracle that I was able to update my post just yesterday.

In fact, I was only able to post my update because I happened to walk past the AD and popped in to see if they'd heard back from Lititz. As it turns out, the AD had heard earlier this week, but did not reach out to me on its own initiative. I can't say why, but if you're still curious, I'll DM you their name so you can google their contact information.

[slus]

Originally Posted by dannyp

Problem is that Tourneau isn't a plaque service center and therefore it won't carry any kind of Rolex-backed guarantee. It may have Rolex-certified watchmakers, and may have a parts account, but isn't able to service under warranty.



True. However there's no logical reason to have done this. Either go back to Tourneau (which presumably has its own service warranty) or go RSC route. Why have someone else open it (at an additional cost) that is less-certified than those who've already worked on it.

As an aside, in retrospect, OP should have approached a dealer with a plaque service center or called RSC directly before going to Tourneau. It was only about two months outside of the service warranty, and I would imagine there's at least a chance it would have still been honored (unless it was a totally new problem, of totally new origin).

This is likely the case. My wife's watch was serviced by Tourneau and that is basically how Tourneau explained it to me. Rolex certified watchmakers, Rolex parts account, but not official Rolex service. It came with a brown warranty card, 2 or 3 years backed by Tourneau not Rolex, so I could see a situation where they would not be required to source a hard to get part on a vintage watch when they have a non-oem substitute.

[faimag]

Originally Posted by Mcleaniac

I doubt I will resolve that issue by writing to Rolex Geneve to tell them that, after considerable debate, 4 out of 5 rolexforums users looked at some pictures online and agree that it is authentic ...

LOL. Keep us posted. Thing is it is unlikely you can convince Lititz that their assessment is wrong based on the previous 2 assessments. I also wonder if, upon re-evaluation, they would admit they made a mistake (if they did) or hold their ground. But what exactly are you looking for: to have Lititz say your watch is authentic or have it serviced and running well by another RSC? I suspect if you take any vintage watch to 100 Rolex technicians, many of whom have no experience with vintage simply because they have never seen or worked on them before, a random percentage will say this or that part is not authentic.

[Bladeshot]

The term counterfeit strikes me. I wonder if they misused that term. Did they simply mean an “aftermarket” (or otherwise non-original) component in the watch?

Here’s my story.

Some time ago I bought a Tudor. I was messing around with it. I think I was changing the date wheel. Can’t remember… I dropped the dial and a marker came off. Took it to my AD and they sent to Dallas. Dallas refused to work on it because “there was a non original component”. I can’t recall the words they used, but they did not say counterfeit.

Turns out that someone in the past had changed out the baseplate of the original Tudor-ETA movement with another ETA plate that was not original to a Rolex. Did it function? Sure. It’s an ETA movement.

But Dallas refused to put it back to original condition with a component supplied by Rolex.

I had a watchmaker source the parts and put it back correct to Rolex specifications. Now, they’ve flagged the watch as having non original parts (in their system) and I doubt they will work on it again. But that’s why we have independent watchmakers. Many of them are better than some of the in house Rolex watchmakers. As in any trade, there are experts and novices scattered about.

Did they confiscate or destroy my watch? Nope.

Just put me in a position of having to replace that baseplate to get it back “correct.” And that’s why I like this hobby. I like putting things back as they should be. Even when I’m the one that messed it up by dropping a dial, triggering the entire story to unfold.

Good luck OP.


Just another WIS who loves to trade.
IG @bladeandwatch1

[TimeLord2]

Originally Posted by slus

This is likely the case. My wife's watch was serviced by Tourneau and that is basically how Tourneau explained it to me. Rolex certified watchmakers, Rolex parts account, but not official Rolex service. It came with a brown warranty card, 2 or 3 years backed by Tourneau not Rolex, so I could see a situation where they would not be required to source a hard to get part on a vintage watch when they have a non-oem substitute.

My apologies if I sounded condescending. This is truly a strange situation and i do hope it works out to your benefit. I did have my watch authenticated by the Letitz RSC and it did take a full month for them to render a verdict. Didn't know you had taken that route. I do not believe you need to send it to Geneve either. On another note, it is ridiculous that Tourneau would service the watch with non-Rolex parts. I wish you all the best and good luck resolving this issue. So very sorry to hear about your father. My condolences to you and your family.

[NCRolexguy]

This entire thread should remind us all...buy from an AD.
Forget "trusted sellers". When you buy from those guys you are, at best, the 3rd owner of the watch, no matter how many stickers are on it.
Anything can be removed.

[Marcjvr]

Originally Posted by NCRolexguy

This entire thread should remind us all...buy from an AD.
Forget "trusted sellers". When you buy from those guys you are, at best, the 3rd owner of the watch, no matter how many stickers are on it.
Anything can be removed.

So basically no-one should ever buy a Rolex that is not brand new straight from the factory?

[Me4u2night]

Originally Posted by Mcleaniac

The number of commenters ITT who either don't understand or don't believe my account of events does not give me tremendous confidence, and it is exactly why I am proceeding carefully and want to weigh my options using informed advice before taking action. Let me try again to clear up misapprehensions:

1. I am aware of three times that the watch has gone in for service: 2019, May 2022, and October 2022.
2. For all three times, the watch was taken to an AD, who shipped it offsite for service.
3. The 2019 service went through an AD in St. John's, NL. As Brenngun noted, it went to the RSC in Toronto. The watch returned with an invoice for the service (Factory Service/Crown) that included a 7-digit "Invoice/Facture #). It also came back with the familiar green International Service Guarantee Card. That card came in a booklet, and it identified both the date of service AND a three-digit number (700) that apparently matches to the AD that sent the watch. It also came back with a baggie containing the crown and the gasket. The invoice/facture# was hand written on the baggie in red.
4. Because the watch was not mine when this service was completed, I cannot say with 100% certainty that any of the documents or the warranty card is authentic or accurate. I also cannot say that the prior owner put replacement parts in a baggie and wrote the invoice# on it himself. But until/unless I hear from Rolex that they have no record of this service (in which case the service invoice and warranty card were forged), I have to assume that all of the above is true.
5. For the May 2022 service, I personally took the watch to Tourneau, an AD, and I have emails memorializing my request that the service center return the replaced parts.
6. I do not know where Tourneau sent the watch, because I did not accompany the watch to the service center. I suspect it was in New Jersey, but I can't say for sure. The watch returned with the replaced parts in a baggie, and Tourneau issued the invoice for that repair via email. Once again, the watch also came back with a new International Service Guarantee Card.
7. On the third occasion, I took the watch to an AD in Washington, D.C., and (I have learned since) they sent it to Lititz, PA. It is at that RSC that the watch was flagged.
8. I do not possess the watch. I have requested that it go back to Lititz for re-evaluation and a detailed description of what parts are counterfeit.
9. That means I can't "take the watch to Tourneau" or send it to another RSC on my own. At least not until I re-take possession.

I appreciate that some or all of the above is not the course of action some of you would have taken, or does not reflect your personal experience. But I promise you that I am not wasting my time or yours by making up stories. I will try to put aside time to upload pictures, though I have to say the UI for this site is not great for that, and I'm guessing it will take some time to export them from my iPhone. And in any event, I don't know what pictures of the watch will achieve. Any user's opinion about service hands, or the kerning on a rail dial will just be a distraction from the main issue: RSC in Lititz says it's counterfeit. Toronto and Tourneau had no problems with it. I doubt I will resolve that issue by writing to Rolex Geneve to tell them that, after considerable debate, 4 out of 5 rolexforums users looked at some pictures online and agree that it is authentic ...

I’ve never had a watch serviced but my understanding, if sent to rsc, they don’t give you the replaced parts. I’m guessing Tourneau had a non authorized Rolex repair center fix the watch, hence the none genuine parts.

[AF_Rob]

Originally Posted by Marcjvr

So basically no-one should ever buy a Rolex that is not brand new straight from the factory?

That's what I got out of it. I guess I've been doing this hobby all wrong.

[Michael T]

Originally Posted by Mcleaniac

The number of commenters ITT who either don't understand or don't believe my account of events does not give me tremendous confidence, and it is exactly why I am proceeding carefully and want to weigh my options using informed advice before taking action. Let me try again to clear up misapprehensions:

1. I am aware of three times that the watch has gone in for service: 2019, May 2022, and October 2022.
2. For all three times, the watch was taken to an AD, who shipped it offsite for service.
3. The 2019 service went through an AD in St. John's, NL. As Brenngun noted, it went to the RSC in Toronto. The watch returned with an invoice for the service (Factory Service/Crown) that included a 7-digit "Invoice/Facture #). It also came back with the familiar green International Service Guarantee Card. That card came in a booklet, and it identified both the date of service AND a three-digit number (700) that apparently matches to the AD that sent the watch. It also came back with a baggie containing the crown and the gasket. The invoice/facture# was hand written on the baggie in red.
4. Because the watch was not mine when this service was completed, I cannot say with 100% certainty that any of the documents or the warranty card is authentic or accurate. I also cannot say that the prior owner put replacement parts in a baggie and wrote the invoice# on it himself. But until/unless I hear from Rolex that they have no record of this service (in which case the service invoice and warranty card were forged), I have to assume that all of the above is true.
5. For the May 2022 service, I personally took the watch to Tourneau, an AD, and I have emails memorializing my request that the service center return the replaced parts.
6. I do not know where Tourneau sent the watch, because I did not accompany the watch to the service center. I suspect it was in New Jersey, but I can't say for sure. The watch returned with the replaced parts in a baggie, and Tourneau issued the invoice for that repair via email. Once again, the watch also came back with a new International Service Guarantee Card.
7. On the third occasion, I took the watch to an AD in Washington, D.C., and (I have learned since) they sent it to Lititz, PA. It is at that RSC that the watch was flagged.
8. I do not possess the watch. I have requested that it go back to Lititz for re-evaluation and a detailed description of what parts are counterfeit.
9. That means I can't "take the watch to Tourneau" or send it to another RSC on my own. At least not until I re-take possession.

I appreciate that some or all of the above is not the course of action some of you would have taken, or does not reflect your personal experience. But I promise you that I am not wasting my time or yours by making up stories. I will try to put aside time to upload pictures, though I have to say the UI for this site is not great for that, and I'm guessing it will take some time to export them from my iPhone. And in any event, I don't know what pictures of the watch will achieve. Any user's opinion about service hands, or the kerning on a rail dial will just be a distraction from the main issue: RSC in Lititz says it's counterfeit. Toronto and Tourneau had no problems with it. I doubt I will resolve that issue by writing to Rolex Geneve to tell them that, after considerable debate, 4 out of 5 rolexforums users looked at some pictures online and agree that it is authentic ...

It might be helpful to share both the 2019 RSC documentation with RSC Lititz, as well as detailed photos of the parts that were replaced by Tourreau. The reason I mention this, if you want recourse against Tourneau, it would be helpful to trace the non-Rolex parts that may have been replaced back to Tourneau. I do not see the downside in sharing as much information with Lititz as possible, given the current situation. I hope you have an amicable outcome.

[NCRolexguy]

Originally Posted by Marcjvr

So basically no-one should ever buy a Rolex that is not brand new straight from the factory?

In today's world, if you want to be certain it's 100% authentic, that is the only way.
Otherwise it's a roll of the dice and a trip to RSC to wait on their verdict.

There are even cases out there of people buying 'new' from trusted sellers only to find that their PM links had been replaced with fakes. The trusted seller probably never knew or even dreamed to have to check them but when it comes to Rolex, nothing can be assumed.

[CarlOver]

Originally Posted by Mcleaniac

The number of commenters ITT who either don't understand or don't believe my account of events does not give me tremendous confidence, and it is exactly why I am proceeding carefully and want to weigh my options using informed advice before taking action. Let me try again to clear up misapprehensions:

1. I am aware of three times that the watch has gone in for service: 2019, May 2022, and October 2022.
2. For all three times, the watch was taken to an AD, who shipped it offsite for service.
3. The 2019 service went through an AD in St. John's, NL. As Brenngun noted, it went to the RSC in Toronto. The watch returned with an invoice for the service (Factory Service/Crown) that included a 7-digit "Invoice/Facture #). It also came back with the familiar green International Service Guarantee Card. That card came in a booklet, and it identified both the date of service AND a three-digit number (700) that apparently matches to the AD that sent the watch. It also came back with a baggie containing the crown and the gasket. The invoice/facture# was hand written on the baggie in red.
4. Because the watch was not mine when this service was completed, I cannot say with 100% certainty that any of the documents or the warranty card is authentic or accurate. I also cannot say that the prior owner put replacement parts in a baggie and wrote the invoice# on it himself. But until/unless I hear from Rolex that they have no record of this service (in which case the service invoice and warranty card were forged), I have to assume that all of the above is true.
5. For the May 2022 service, I personally took the watch to Tourneau, an AD, and I have emails memorializing my request that the service center return the replaced parts.
6. I do not know where Tourneau sent the watch, because I did not accompany the watch to the service center. I suspect it was in New Jersey, but I can't say for sure. The watch returned with the replaced parts in a baggie, and Tourneau issued the invoice for that repair via email. Once again, the watch also came back with a new International Service Guarantee Card.
7. On the third occasion, I took the watch to an AD in Washington, D.C., and (I have learned since) they sent it to Lititz, PA. It is at that RSC that the watch was flagged.
8. I do not possess the watch. I have requested that it go back to Lititz for re-evaluation and a detailed description of what parts are counterfeit.
9. That means I can't "take the watch to Tourneau" or send it to another RSC on my own. At least not until I re-take possession.

I appreciate that some or all of the above is not the course of action some of you would have taken, or does not reflect your personal experience. But I promise you that I am not wasting my time or yours by making up stories. I will try to put aside time to upload pictures, though I have to say the UI for this site is not great for that, and I'm guessing it will take some time to export them from my iPhone. And in any event, I don't know what pictures of the watch will achieve. Any user's opinion about service hands, or the kerning on a rail dial will just be a distraction from the main issue: RSC in Lititz says it's counterfeit. Toronto and Tourneau had no problems with it. I doubt I will resolve that issue by writing to Rolex Geneve to tell them that, after considerable debate, 4 out of 5 rolexforums users looked at some pictures online and agree that it is authentic ...

Originally Posted by Me4u2night

I’ve never had a watch serviced but my understanding, if sent to rsc, they don’t give you the replaced parts. I’m guessing Tourneau had a non authorized Rolex repair center fix the watch, hence the none genuine parts.

This is my guess as well.

[Marcjvr]

Originally Posted by NCRolexguy

In today's world, if you want to be certain it's 100% authentic, that is the only way.
Otherwise it's a roll of the dice and a trip to RSC to wait on their verdict.

There are even cases out there of people buying 'new' from trusted sellers only to find that their PM links had been replaced with fakes. The trusted seller probably never knew or even dreamed to have to check them but when it comes to Rolex, nothing can be assumed.

So buying from an AD is not the only way then. The RSC will validate it, which you said in your next sentence. So not much risk if you buy from a TS here and then get the RSC involved as well

Sorry but personally I have just as much faith, or even more, in the Trusted Sellers on here. They have successful proven business with long track records while I have seen plenty ADs come and go.