How to chose a vintage sub?

[Zeus6542]

Hi everyone - I know this issue has been discussed and yes, I have done a cursory search, read some posts etc... but I'm new to this vintage sub market and trying gather data before I pull the trigger. It appears very difficult to find pristine pieces, but am finding pieces with various replacement parts (bezels, PIPs, bracelets etc...) through various price ranges from $16,895USDs up to $23,995 USDs.

Is there anything that's a real deal breaker like replacement hands etc... ?

Thanks in advance for any insight you can give.
JP

P.s. Here's a collection I'm looking at: 5513, 5513, 1680, 5512 ALL have replacement bracelets. The 5513 second in from far left a replacement bezel.

[Dan S]

Everyone has a different tolerance for replacement parts and condition, you will have to keep learning until you can decide for yourself what you can tolerate and what you enjoy. Personally, I don't mind a replacement bracelet or crown, but anything else would be enough for me to think twice, and I would have to carefully evaluate whether I like the watch in its current state, or whether I'm willing to spend the time and money on restoration.

Frankly, the same is true of condition. As you mentioned, most 50 year old watches are not pristine, but joy can sometimes be had from watches that are not perfect. Again, everyone is different, and our tolerance for aging and wear is highly varied. You will see this across the members of the forum if you pay attention and participate regularly. It also depends on the watch, its rarity and age, etc.

Most important is your own personal assessment of the appeal of the watch, and nobody can tell you whether to like a watch or not. Some people will not enjoy a watch unless the case lines are sharp and original. Others particularly like yellowed tritium lume, or a faded bezel. It would be best for you to learn what you like.

Perhaps you might consider spending a few years learning about collecting vintage watches in a lower market segment. That would give you the chance to experience buying, selling, and trading by handling many watches in person. You will get some experience with the challenges that come with old mechanical objects that have often been tampered with, and learn about your own preferences in a tangible way. Live with vintage watches for a while, and you will see which ones you tend to choose each morning, and which stay in the drawer. I think that's what most collectors do, we don't typically jump in and ask "which $20k watch should I invest in?"

[swish77]

Agree with the above ... I don't ever buy (or not buy) a watch based on a bracelet. It's like tires on a car and can be sorted out later if you want. Also, a bezel insert can be sourced separately afterward, so that's never a deal-breaker (although definitely a cost factor). I never buy anything with a damaged, replaced, relumed or refinished dial or hands, or if it has a weak case, even if it's a bargain.

Of the watches listed above, I'd vote for the 5512 on the far right, despite the small photo. Appears to have a nice fat case and appealing patina, although you'd need to do a lot more vetting to make sure all is good.

[swaini3]

Wise words above. Learn and learn about the reference before you buy. With value in mind, give more priority to period correct parts and condition of case, dial and hands...

[TuRo]

Only test I use is age/originality - I.e. how close to ground zero is it (ceteris paribus).....and of course budget (I never buy a watch at 5 yrs times value) . So for me the oldest you can get to 53 is best and work upwards from there. Personally ORIGINALITY then rarity and age top trump even condition for me on a Rolex like say a sub - others favour condition!

[zapokee]

Originally Posted by TuRo

...I never buy a watch at 5 yrs times value

Sounds interesting, but can you give an examlpe to illustrate?

[cascavel]

#4. Just based on looks.

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by zapokee

Sounds interesting, but can you give an examlpe to illustrate?

Yes some people are paying what a watch might be worth in 5 yrs rather than a keen trade price at moment eg Maxi £20k, 16520 £45k, 16710 £20k .....I just don't go there thats all !!

[Cooper33]

One thing that has become a trend in vintage markets is to advertise the watch with original dial and hands but then add "hands have been colored to match the dial". A set of tritium hands in good condition, and especially one that matches the color of your dial, are really tricky - and expensive - to find, so I usually go for pieces that have never been relumed, even if they were replaced in the past and have developed a different patina than the dial.

[HERITAGE82]

From the watches above the 5512 is the most appealing.

[harry in montreal]

The first three have mushy crown guards and the inserts look newer. Even the 5512 has soft crown guards. Study the photos of the crown guards on hq Milton and you will start to figure out the superior v inferior shape

[Tricolore66]

Everyone is different, but my hot buttons are original case with minimal polish and thick lugs, original dial and hands (or at least hands that match the color of the dial plots, and no major deep scratches. If you want to actually wear it often, I’d take off the original bracelet and put it in n a newer one, if only for security on the wrist.

[Zeus6542]

Great advice everyone, thank you. Please keep it coming.

As for polishing, how do they actually do it that would wear down the crown guards? Do these use polishing wheel?

JP

[TuRo]

From a soupçon of a light polishing cloth to a bastard file and anywhere inbetween it would appear !

[hutch300]

Do you already have a sub? The no date options have very different appeal than the 1680 will. It would be great to know more of what you are after than to eval the 4 pics provided.