ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX

BBH · 14 August 2009, 05:55 AM

I have been looking at a "2008, M Serial number" 16610LV "green" Submariner that is posted for sale on my local "Craigslist". The seller is a local pawn shop. The watch really looks great, absolutely authentic to my educated, but NOT expert eye. The only thing missing is the micro etched "Coronet" on the crystal.

When I mentioned that there should be a micro-etched crown on the crystal, an anti-counterfeiting measure used since around 2002, he professed to not know what I was talking about. I went back there today with my own illuminated loupe to see if I had just simply "missed" the etching. The shop keeper greeted me with the update that he had spoken to a "Rolex Rep" who informed him that some watches, even of the same model, have the etching, and some don't. The "rep" further stated that Rolex has lots of "un-etched" crystals that they need to get rid of, so "some have it and some don't". (I realize the green crystal Milgauss watches DO NOT have the etched crystal.)

The illogic of this apparently missed the pawn shop owner, but obviously (at least to me...) if "some have it and some don't", the anti-counterfeiting value of ANY etched crown is totally neutralized. That Rolex even HAS old, un-etched crystals that they are financially worried about is also ludicrous... (Why not "etch" the "un-etched" crystals? Don't they ALL start out as "un-etched"?).

In other words, the rationale for the missing etching seems like pure and simple BS to me. The watch is a very good fake. Comments?

mfer · 14 August 2009, 06:03 AM

So you reached a good conclusion. Walk away.

The only thing you said wrong is "very good fake." There is no such thing!

BLM2 · 14 August 2009, 06:16 AM

I would walk away.

Lee

smallcandle · 14 August 2009, 06:19 AM

Walk.

Ed Rooney · 14 August 2009, 06:22 AM

Run.

Alan111 · 14 August 2009, 06:54 AM

Fly!

train-time · 14 August 2009, 06:58 AM

I don't buy the story about some having the etching and some not having it, but I can tell you that on the M serial series LV's the micro-etching is almost impossible to see. You literally have to go outside in natural light with a loop to find the sucker. And you have to tilt the watch around to see it come into view. It could be there, it's just very difficult to see.

Tools · 14 August 2009, 07:04 AM

The first laugh is a Pawn Shop talking to their Rolex Rep....

The Pawn Shop owner is, of course, blowing smoke up your knickers..

All Rolex after 2003, when the LV was released (and it is a 16610 model) will have an etched crystal if it is an authentic Rolex crystal. There will be an S in the crown symbol if it has been replaced..

However, not having the etch is not a true indication of authenticity... it may have been replaced with a non-Rolex part. and it is very difficult to find if you don't know what you are looking for, so you should know other tell tale signs of non-authenticity.

All that said though... it doesn't sound like this shop owner is on the up and up.. so, unless it looks good both on the outside and in the movement, I would just walk away......

BBH · 14 August 2009, 07:22 AM

I do love it when my actions are reenforced by the thoughts of others!!!

It is being sold as a like new watch. No mention of a replacement crystal. It is BOGUS. But, boy, it sure looks good everywhere else.

BBH · 14 August 2009, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by train-time

I don't buy the story about some having the etching and some not having it, but I can tell you that on the M serial series LV's the micro-etching is almost impossible to see. You literally have to go outside in natural light with a loop to find the sucker. And you have to tilt the watch around to see it come into view. It could be there, it's just very difficult to see.

Earlier in the day I looked at another "LV" at a Jeweler's Exchange (modern day bazaar...). I was able to see the etched coronet on it. Difficult, but obviously there with my illuminated loupe. Because of the difficulty of seeing it, but ultimately being successful, I then decided to give the pawn shop watch another look. That's when he gave me his song and dance about "some have it and some don't".

The pawn shop guy also would NOT put in writing that it was genuine and , in fact, insisted his "insurance" required him to give me a receipt that said "all transactions are 'as is' with no representations of any kind made as to authenticity". Of course, "off the record", he assured me it was genuine. Hah.

drtooth73 · 14 August 2009, 07:42 AM

Pawn shop operators usually know their rolex.
They are supposed to check all incoming Rolex against police and insurance database.
I highly doubt they would sell a fake rolex as BNIB.

Since you mentioned international jewelry exchange: they have the hugest selection in the world. why not buy there?
The only thing there: if you are buying new or close to new, check that they dont sell you a refinished 3-4 year old model.

DRAWTOOL · 14 August 2009, 07:52 AM

I would have to Limp away but Limp away I would!

landroverking · 14 August 2009, 08:09 AM

NO Way run!

BBH · 14 August 2009, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drtooth73

Pawn shop operators usually know their rolex.
They are supposed to check all incoming Rolex against police and insurance database.
I highly doubt they would sell a fake rolex as BNIB.

Since you mentioned international jewelry exchange: they have the hugest selection in the world. why not buy there?
The only thing there: if you are buying new or close to new, check that they dont sell you a refinished 3-4 year old model.

I know all this as well, but... his story about why his Rolex doesn't have the micro-etching is ridiculous.

One of the merchants there does have one that is really motivating me. It is being sold as "new", he will "guarantee" in writing it is authentic, and will provide a "two step... him to an AD" 2 year warranty. We are currently haggling over price. I feel good enough about this particular watch/deal to consider a cash transaction (lowest price, no "outside" fees, etc.).

VDENTALS · 14 August 2009, 08:48 AM

here are some pics

nektar · 14 August 2009, 09:18 AM

ruuunnnnnn

Rikki · 14 August 2009, 12:22 PM

Run Forest Run, unfortunately I just bought out from the wife of a deceased Rolex watchmaker a dozen brand new in the sealed envelope sapphire crystals without the logo. Original just old stock, that being said Run Forest Run Rik the watchmaker

MattG · 14 August 2009, 12:34 PM

It's almost impossible to see. I'd run faster if you can easily see it...they are noticable on fakes.

Omega_Precision · 14 August 2009, 12:47 PM

Could it be that the watch was an early LV?

I know some LV models were released in 2003 (Y-serial). Perhaps, the laser etched crystal wasn't used then.

Check to see if that particular watch is a Y-serial. The pawn shop probably tried to pass it off as new, M-serial. If it has all the ROLEXROLEXROLEX on it, it should have an etched crystal.

Buyer Beware!

onkyo · 14 August 2009, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBH

Earlier in the day I looked at another "LV" at a Jeweler's Exchange (modern day bazaar...). I was able to see the etched coronet on it. Difficult, but obviously there with my illuminated loupe. Because of the difficulty of seeing it, but ultimately being successful, I then decided to give the pawn shop watch another look. That's when he gave me his song and dance about "some have it and some don't".

The pawn shop guy also would NOT put in writing that it was genuine and , in fact, insisted his "insurance" required him to give me a receipt that said "all transactions are 'as is' with no representations of any kind made as to authenticity". Of course, "off the record", he assured me it was genuine. Hah.

Ok ... then I would buy it.

BlackpoolRolexCoaste · 14 August 2009, 09:31 PM

Start the car!
Hit the gas to your nearest AD and pay the premium for peace of mind.......
There's pawn shops and there's porn shops....one is okay.....

Brushpup · 15 August 2009, 12:07 AM

You can likely find a better deal right here on TRF. There are some great sellers and I plan to be buying from one of them early next month. Being new, I can see how this would make you nervous, but I may never go to an AD again.

Imran · 15 August 2009, 01:12 AM

Seems to me BBH, that you are someone with a good knowledge (owns personal illuminated loupe) on the subject and have closely handeled the same watch earlier that day at the jewellery exchange. If the watch was not authentic you would have probably picked up some other indications. If all seems good and proper except for the LEC perhaps the watch is real but altered. You would be best off buying a new LV....either AD or other reliable source, at the sacrifice of higher cost of course. I personally feel wary of ever buying a used or like new watch. BNIB works best for my paranoid self.

BBH · 15 August 2009, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omega_Precision

Could it be that the watch was an early LV?

I know some LV models were released in 2003 (Y-serial). Perhaps, the laser etched crystal wasn't used then.

Check to see if that particular watch is a Y-serial. The pawn shop probably tried to pass it off as new, M-serial. If it has all the ROLEXROLEXROLEX on it, it should have an etched crystal.

Buyer Beware!

As far as I know, there is no "early" LV when talking about the micro-etched crystal. The LV came out in 2003, the etching in the 2001-2002 time frame.

Anyway, the watch is represented as a 2008 Model, M Serial number. It does have the rehaut engraving.

I'm going to buy the LV from the Jewelry Exchange. It passes ALL the "smell" tests and the seller is willing to accompany me to an AD for authentication.

BBH · 15 August 2009, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imran

Seems to me BBH, that you are someone with a good knowledge (owns personal illuminated loupe) on the subject and have closely handeled the same watch earlier that day at the jewellery exchange. If the watch was not authentic you would have probably picked up some other indications. If all seems good and proper except for the LEC perhaps the watch is real but altered. You would be best off buying a new LV....either AD or other reliable source, at the sacrifice of higher cost of course. I personally feel wary of ever buying a used or like new watch. BNIB works best for my paranoid self.

I bought the loupe for a couple of dollars on Amazon.com just for my Rolex search.

There is simply no good reason for a 2008 watch not to have the LEC. If the crystal was replaced (why???) and not replaced with a proper Rolex crystal (with a LEC with an "S" in it...) I wouldn't want the watch on those grounds. The seller INSISTS it is all original, never worked on, and the reason (according to a "Rolex Rep") it doesn't have the LEC is simply that "some do and some don't." Obviously, that is BS. If it was true, the LEC would then have NO anti-counterfeiting value. Why put it on anything?

Phill (UK) · 15 August 2009, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBH

There is simply no good reason for a 2008 watch not to have the LEC. If the crystal was replaced (why???) and not replaced with a proper Rolex crystal (with a LEC with an "S" in it...) I wouldn't want the watch on those grounds. The seller INSISTS it is all original, never worked on, and the reason (according to a "Rolex Rep") it doesn't have the LEC is simply that "some do and some don't." Obviously, that is BS. If it was true, the LEC would then have NO anti-counterfeiting value. Why put it on anything?

The seller is lying and the watch is a fake... simple as, end of!

MattG · 15 August 2009, 11:30 AM

dude, buy your watch from one of the TRF sellers, and forget about it.

14 August 2009, 05:55 AM	#1
BBH "TRF" Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 86	I think the watch is fake, but.... I have been looking at a "2008, M Serial number" 16610LV "green" Submariner that is posted for sale on my local "Craigslist". The seller is a local pawn shop. The watch really looks great, absolutely authentic to my educated, but NOT expert eye. The only thing missing is the micro etched "Coronet" on the crystal. When I mentioned that there should be a micro-etched crown on the crystal, an anti-counterfeiting measure used since around 2002, he professed to not know what I was talking about. I went back there today with my own illuminated loupe to see if I had just simply "missed" the etching. The shop keeper greeted me with the update that he had spoken to a "Rolex Rep" who informed him that some watches, even of the same model, have the etching, and some don't. The "rep" further stated that Rolex has lots of "un-etched" crystals that they need to get rid of, so "some have it and some don't". (I realize the green crystal Milgauss watches DO NOT have the etched crystal.) The illogic of this apparently missed the pawn shop owner, but obviously (at least to me...) if "some have it and some don't", the anti-counterfeiting value of ANY etched crown is totally neutralized. That Rolex even HAS old, un-etched crystals that they are financially worried about is also ludicrous... (Why not "etch" the "un-etched" crystals? Don't they ALL start out as "un-etched"?). In other words, the rationale for the missing etching seems like pure and simple BS to me. The watch is a very good fake. Comments? Last edited by BBH; 14 August 2009 at 07:23 AM.. Reason: Corrected Watch Model

14 August 2009, 06:03 AM	#2
mfer "TRF" Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Real Name: Mik Location: USA Posts: 13,724	So you reached a good conclusion. Walk away. The only thing you said wrong is "very good fake." There is no such thing! __________________ member#3242

14 August 2009, 07:04 AM	#8
Tools TRF Moderator & 2024 SubLV41 Patron Join Date: May 2007 Real Name: Larry Location: Mojave Desert Watch: GMT's Posts: 43,514	The first laugh is a Pawn Shop talking to their Rolex Rep.... The Pawn Shop owner is, of course, blowing smoke up your knickers.. All Rolex after 2003, when the LV was released (and it is a 16610 model) will have an etched crystal if it is an authentic Rolex crystal. There will be an S in the crown symbol if it has been replaced.. However, not having the etch is not a true indication of authenticity... it may have been replaced with a non-Rolex part. and it is very difficult to find if you don't know what you are looking for, so you should know other tell tale signs of non-authenticity. All that said though... it doesn't sound like this shop owner is on the up and up.. so, unless it looks good both on the outside and in the movement, I would just walk away...... __________________ (Chill ... It's just a watch Forum.....) NAWCC Member

14 August 2009, 08:48 AM	#15
VDENTALS "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: TEXAS Watch: ROLEX LV Posts: 156	here are some pics Attached Images __________________ GMT MASTER IIC 116710 M GMT MASTER ll 16710 M SUBMARINER 16610 LV M SUBMARINER 16613 M

15 August 2009, 12:07 AM	#22
Brushpup "TRF" Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Real Name: Patrick Location: Texas Watch: what I'm wearing Posts: 5,943	You can likely find a better deal right here on TRF. There are some great sellers and I plan to be buying from one of them early next month. Being new, I can see how this would make you nervous, but I may never go to an AD again. __________________ *TRFs "AFTER DARK" Bar & NightClub Patron-Founding Member* PClub # 10 74,592 The safest place for your watch is on your wrist.

14 August 2009, 06:16 AM	#3
BLM2 "TRF" Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: USA Posts: 361	I would walk away. Lee

14 August 2009, 06:19 AM	#4
smallcandle "TRF" Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Real Name: Brian Location: Kansas Watch: 16610, Omega PO Posts: 1,898	Walk.

14 August 2009, 06:22 AM	#5
Ed Rooney "TRF" Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Annapolis, MD Watch: Sea-Dweller 16600 Posts: 5,081	Run.

14 August 2009, 06:54 AM	#6
Alan111 "TRF" Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: NYC Posts: 1,605	Fly!

14 August 2009, 06:58 AM	#7
train-time 2024 SubLV41 Pledge Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Real Name: Plankton Location: US Watch: less Posts: 4,161	I don't buy the story about some having the etching and some not having it, but I can tell you that on the M serial series LV's the micro-etching is almost impossible to see. You literally have to go outside in natural light with a loop to find the sucker. And you have to tilt the watch around to see it come into view. It could be there, it's just very difficult to see.

14 August 2009, 07:22 AM	#9
BBH "TRF" Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 86	I do love it when my actions are reenforced by the thoughts of others!!! It is being sold as a like new watch. No mention of a replacement crystal. It is BOGUS. But, boy, it sure looks good everywhere else.

14 August 2009, 07:42 AM	#11
drtooth73 Banned Join Date: Feb 2009 Real Name: W. Stutman Location: Motor City Watch: TT GMT IIC Posts: 2,223	Pawn shop operators usually know their rolex. They are supposed to check all incoming Rolex against police and insurance database. I highly doubt they would sell a fake rolex as BNIB. Since you mentioned international jewelry exchange: they have the hugest selection in the world. why not buy there? The only thing there: if you are buying new or close to new, check that they dont sell you a refinished 3-4 year old model.

14 August 2009, 07:52 AM	#12
DRAWTOOL "TRF" Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Real Name: Mikey Uí Néill Location: Olden Texas Watch: 14060M & 16570 Posts: 1,941	I would have to Limp away but Limp away I would!

14 August 2009, 08:09 AM	#13
landroverking "TRF" Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Real Name: Jay Location: TEXAS Watch: Daytona Posts: 7,648	NO Way run!

14 August 2009, 09:18 AM	#16
nektar "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Louisiana Watch: 114060 Posts: 1,678	ruuunnnnnn

14 August 2009, 12:22 PM	#17
Rikki TechXpert Join Date: Jun 2009 Real Name: Rik Dietel Location: Seminole Fla Watch: 5512 s/s Sub Posts: 1,818	Run Forest Run, unfortunately I just bought out from the wife of a deceased Rolex watchmaker a dozen brand new in the sealed envelope sapphire crystals without the logo. Original just old stock, that being said Run Forest Run Rik the watchmaker

14 August 2009, 12:34 PM	#18
MattG Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Real Name: Matt Location: Northern CA Watch: Sub, ExpII, MIL-GV Posts: 45	It's almost impossible to see. I'd run faster if you can easily see it...they are noticable on fakes.

14 August 2009, 12:47 PM	#19
Omega_Precision Banned Join Date: Dec 2008 Real Name: Henry Location: CA, US Watch: ing basketball Posts: 2,977	Could it be that the watch was an early LV? I know some LV models were released in 2003 (Y-serial). Perhaps, the laser etched crystal wasn't used then. Check to see if that particular watch is a Y-serial. The pawn shop probably tried to pass it off as new, M-serial. If it has all the ROLEXROLEXROLEX on it, it should have an etched crystal. Buyer Beware!

14 August 2009, 09:31 PM	#21
BlackpoolRolexCoaste Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Real Name: John T Location: Benidorm, Spain Watch: Blue sub & SS Sub Posts: 226	Start the car! Hit the gas to your nearest AD and pay the premium for peace of mind....... There's pawn shops and there's porn shops....one is okay.....

15 August 2009, 01:12 AM	#23
Imran "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2009 Real Name: Imran Location: Karachi, Pakistan Watch: Air-King 126900 Posts: 171	Seems to me BBH, that you are someone with a good knowledge (owns personal illuminated loupe) on the subject and have closely handeled the same watch earlier that day at the jewellery exchange. If the watch was not authentic you would have probably picked up some other indications. If all seems good and proper except for the LEC perhaps the watch is real but altered. You would be best off buying a new LV....either AD or other reliable source, at the sacrifice of higher cost of course. I personally feel wary of ever buying a used or like new watch. BNIB works best for my paranoid self.

15 August 2009, 11:30 AM	#27
MattG Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Real Name: Matt Location: Northern CA Watch: Sub, ExpII, MIL-GV Posts: 45	dude, buy your watch from one of the TRF sellers, and forget about it.

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