Possible Original Oyster?

[Bullwinkle]

Hello Everyone. I'm new here and not a collector, but I have in my possession, a watch given to me by my father, beyond which its provenance is unknown. At the time, he indicated it was an early (unmarked) Rolex Oyster, but I'm interested if anyone can provide a better idea of what I have.

The watch is in admittedly overall poor condition, with a well-crazed crystal, and a badly corroded and scratched back. However, it winds, adjusts and runs flawlessly. It is missing the wristband and is quite small, with the ovoid square case measuring 28 mm diameter, and the actual round face (crystal) of 20 mm diameter.

As can be seen by the provided pictures, it is virtually identical to the original "Oyster" of 1926, with the following noted exceptions:
- The face is the original with the Roman numeral dial, lower second dial, and the words "Swiss made" on the bottom sides of the second dial. However it is lacking any branding whatsoever, nor the words "Ultra Prima" which are present in all such pictures I can obtain of the original oysters.
- The hands have a circular embellishment as opposed to the fleur-de-lis of such examples I have seen. Also, they have a very slight colored sheen to them, blue for the minute hand, and magenta for the hour hand.
- The screw down winding stem is of a flattened cylinder as opposed to the more spherical knurled items I observe on original pictures. The flat face of the stem does have raised characters that say "Oyster Patent" and the Swiss cross.

Based on the above, I would suspect that the hands and winding stem may have been replaced at some point in the watch's history, but at least in the case of the stem, I'd assume that it is of genuine (Rolex?) supply, because of its fit and finish.

Based on what I've provided, I'd be very grateful if anyone can provide any more insights into what this watch represents, as well as any advice for me on how I may proceed.

Cheers
JP
Face1S.jpg

Face2S.jpg

BackS.jpg

StemS.jpg

[Bullwinkle]

I'm giving this a bump, and making another plea for any observations, advice, comments (useful or even dismissive/insulting), etc. as to what I might do with this piece.

It has no particular value (sentimental or otherwise) to me, and I'm unlikely to put any great expense or effort into it, especially if I have no idea what I'd wind up with. I spoke to Bob's Watches about it and they suggested this forum would be a likely source of info.

So, is my quest worthwhile, or just a waste of time? ;-)

Cheers
JP

[Dan S]

You need to show the movement.

[miamiclay]

Wish I could help … You will need pics of the movement.
Idk at all whether he’d be receptive, but you might PM @Dr.Smellody

BTW - That case back is just extraordinary!

[996marty]

If you don’t want to put any great expense or effort into it as you say what do you want to achieve from this post?
Sure you could maybe send it to someone to do some work on it but at a price hence my original question.
Looking at it and reading your post I can only assume that it will probably go back into a drawer but you will probably learn a little more about it. Or maybe you are looking to sell it? If so you could test eBay out ?

[Bullwinkle]

Thanks for the replies.
This has sat in a drawer since my Dad died in 1999, and mostly I was wondering if it's worth passing on to my son when I go, so any information on the watch itself would be helpful.

I appreciate the value in getting a view of the movement if I want to know more, but I don't have the tools or knowledge to do much work on it myself. I suppose I couldn't make the back anymore damaged by making a concerted effort to unscrew it (i.e. is it screwed on ?), but I'd have to get creative.

Alternately, I could send it away to someone who does have the knowledge and tools (Idk who), but beyond an relatively inexpensive quick look, I don't know what I'd do then.

I can't see any value in restoring it (i.e. is that even possible?), unless it would then essentially be very valuable.

Ultimately, I'd like to know if it has any value as is. Rolexes seem to have a loyal and dedicated following, and I'm curious if that might include a collector who'd find some worth in it? At present, I don't see any sense in "putting it back in a drawer", for my son to deal with, but I thought it may have some value to someone over my throwing it into my scrap metal bin.

Thanks again, Cheers
JP

[Dan S]

The challenge is that it's an obscure watch, and based on what we can see from the photos, it's really not easy to evaluate the watch and answer your questions. Obviously the condition is very rough, and it's missing any branding on the dial. So what is it? A legit early Rolex with replacement parts? Something put together entirely from parts? A rare prototype? We're just suggesting that with more information, a more complete picture might begin to emerge. Otherwise, it will probably just remain a mystery.

TBH, I doubt it has a lot of financial value, but the right collector might be interested in having it for curiosity's sake. If you put it on eBay with a low price, someone will take a chance on it, and at least you will have passed it on to someone who is interested.

[Bullwinkle]

I have been able to get the back off, only to find a number of things I find very curious.

The movement is clearly of original Rolex (Aegler?) manufacture, containing many of the hallmarks one would expect, such as: 15 Rubies, Ultra Prima, etc., but the inside of the case back is where it gets very (to me) interesting.

The original stampings are of "Oyster Watch Co." (was this ID ever used by Rolex or Aegler?), a number of Swiss, Great Britain, and US Patents, and then a diamond logo with "Snowite" (who or what is that?) in it, followed by the serial number of 1085.

There are a number (~6) of other scratchings or light engravings of numbers and/or initials, presumably by various tradesmen who have been in the watch since new.

Does anyone have any insights or comments from this new information? All contributions appreciated.

Cheers
JP

[fivedime]

“Snowite” was Rolex’s chrome-plated cast zinc material trademark. I would guess 1085 is probably a model (or case?) number, not serial. Very early watch (late ‘20’s - 1930’s?).

[Bullwinkle]

Originally Posted by fivedime

“Snowite” was Rolex’s chrome-plated cast zinc material trademark.

Thanks for that fivedime. That makes sense, and the use of highly reactive zinc as a case material might explain the severe corrosion on the back of the watch.

No understanding of how or when "Oyster Watch Co." was ever used by Rolex?

Cheers
JP

[CTech]

This link has a comprehensive review of the history of the Oyster Watch Co.:

https://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/b...terwatchco.php

as well as bit more information about the Snowite alloy and a photo of a case back very similar to yours, but probably made a little bit later.

It is unusual to have a movement with Rolex markings in an Oyster Watch Co. case so maybe some things have got swapped over the long life of the watch.

[Stan Cooper]

It is clearly an Aegler Rebberg movement, possibly a Hunter. Aegler was a supplier of movements to Rolex and several other brands in the early 20th century. Later, the company was purchased by Rolex.

https://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/a...AeglerandRolex

FWIW, Swiss watches imported into the U.K. until the mid-1920s were not permitted to have the manufacturer's brand on the dial, so that is not unusual. The U.K. retailers managed to get legislation passed to prevent the manufacturer's name on the dial so they could print their own name on it.

Here's my 1914/1915 Rolex trench watch dial with an Extra Prima 18 Jewel rebberg movement. The case is sterling silver. I have no idea who G.O. Brown was.

[Bullwinkle]

Thank you Stan and CTech, for filling in some big gaps in my knowledge. Much appreciated.

So, it seems I have a hybrid. An Oyster Watch, with a Rolex (Aegler) movement. Whether it was originally like that, or the result of parts swaps over the years, may never be known, but I have enjoyed immensely finding out about these fascinating pieces of history, craftsmanship and art.

Thanks all, for your responses...

JP

[fivedime]

Almost certainly not original…it would gave defeated the intent of the Oyster (lower-cost) brand to put in a Rolex/Aegler movement (kind of akin to putting a Rolex movement in a 1980’s Tudor). Regardless, a VERY cool old watch…plus the case shape casts a little light on the original DNA of Panerais…

[TuRo]

Glad you got some good intel from the good burghers here.

Don't know a heap about them, but these small cushion shaped watches were very popular after the first world war when men started wearing wristwatches in earnest, (women pioneered wristwatches - or more correctly wrist dropped - hundreds of years earlier btw), after officers in late 19th century and early 20th century had made them popular, as fob watches don't cut the mustard in conflict!

They are not worth much at all but I too have one which was my grandfather's and was gifted it by his Colonel for service in W W 1 and the years afterwards with Regiment.

Wouldn't part with it for all the tea in China!

[Bullwinkle]

Yes, almost definitely not original, as confirmed by David Boettcher of vintagewatchstraps.

The most likely scenario was that the Oyster case was swapped for the original 18K gold case, so that the original could be melted down (during the Depression perhaps?). Somewhat an ignominious fate for a fine Rolex movement, IMO.

There's obviously some interesting story behind it, but my father never gave me any indication that it was a family heirloom or idea of how it came into his possession, so I suppose the truth of the matter will never be known.

Still however, I now have a much better idea of what it is, and have learned a lot about early 20th century Swiss watches. More than I could have expected when I started this quest, so a valuable experience for me.

Cheers
JP