The Known Survivor Rate of vintage Rolex. Some observations

[Mark020]

One of my hobbies is researching watches. I have datebases with a.o. Universal Geneve, Movado polyplan & chronographs, Longines 5699 & 5347 imperiables. A very interesting question (IMHO) is always how many watches of a certain reference were made. Sometimes this number is relatively ease to obtain – at least a first glance – because for instance Longines numbered the individual watches in a certain batch.

Other brands are more challenging but there are ways to make an educated guess. Universal Geneve also watches in batches and used – very likely – consequetive numbers within this batch. Using the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_tank_problem one can then calculate an estimate of the batch size. Combining the number of known survivors and the batch number leads the Known Survival Rate© (KSR) of a certain reference. Known in this respect means ‘to be found somewhere in the public domain’. This can be the internet but also books.

My – general - theory is that the survivor rate is influenced by a couple of factors:
 Age: older is lower
 Brand: well known is higher
 Complications (including chrono): more is higher
 Intrinsic value of the case:
Chrono’s: gold is higher
Non-chrono’s: gold is lower
 Size: bigger is higher

Perhaps this can be summarised as: ‘the higher the value, the higher the number of (known) survivors’.

My research show me that for most UG’s the KSR is between 1 and 10%. Of course there is always the unknown unknown: references which were produced but of which no survivors are known.

Most brand never published the number of watches made of a certain reference but a new book published in collaboration with Rolex includes these numbers. Mike Wood already posted some of them on insta.



I spent some time looking for the examples of the smaller batches so ref. 6200, 6204 & 6205. There will absolutely be more examples known than the number I found but on the other end these (very) high watches have a tendency to be traded in very public places (but not always serials numbers are published). The aforementioned references were unfortunately not produced with consequetive serial numbers so the tank formula would have been of little help.
Ref 6200: production 303. Examples found: 22. KSR: 7.3%
Ref 6204: production 2,881. Examples found: 26. KSR: 0.9%
Ref 6205: production 810. Examples found: 43. KSR: 5.2%

Very interesting to see that even for the very top end of the market the % is still in line with what I found earlier!

[Dan S]

These are interesting questions to ponder, Mark. From a rigorous statistical perspective, I think there is one more parameter that should be considered, the fraction of surviving examples that can be sampled using public internet data. Most likely, this is actually a relatively small fraction, but I don't have a good idea of how to estimate it. In other words, my anecdotal impression is that the majority of these uncommon and valuable references trade hands privately (or have not traded hands in the internet era), and may never appear in auctions or public listings. There are many one-owner watches, family heirlooms, watches that have been sold privately, watches sold only in the 20th century, etc.

I realize that I am describing the "unknown surviving fraction", which is technically not your topic, but my intuition tells me that this fraction may actually be significantly larger than the numbers you are estimating. And the total surviving fraction is really the quantity of interest.

[Mark020]

Fair point, certainly on the high end Rolexes. As a guestimate: what % do you assume is the fraction which is known but not publicly?

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by Mark020

Fair point, certainly on the high end Rolexes. As a guestimate: what % do you assume is the fraction which is known but not publicly?

There are some very serious collectors on the forum who might have an estimate for the references that they specialize in. I don't really move in those circles.

[Pete17]

Interesting post Mark, I’ve wondered about this in the past too. I guess only Rolex would have a reasonable estimate of how many are still in circulation from their service records, but then again that wouldn’t be definitive too.
It’d be great to get a breakdown on quantities of dial mark versions too.


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[linesiders]

Great Post, Mark!

There is going to be surprisingly small numbers!

What is the name of this book?

[1William]

For the information that is available this is very interesting data. Without understanding that watches tend to vanish once in the hands of owners and private collectors the best data is just an educated estimate. That is ok with me though as it is always fun to see a find that has providence and is vintage or neo-vintage. Thank you for the post I found it very interesting.

[Mark020]

This is the book btw: https://watchprint.com/en/accueil/73...h-version.html

[rootbeer7]

Originally Posted by Dan S

These are interesting questions to ponder, Mark. From a rigorous statistical perspective, I think there is one more parameter that should be considered, the fraction of surviving examples that can be sampled using public internet data. Most likely, this is actually a relatively small fraction, but I don't have a good idea of how to estimate it. In other words, my anecdotal impression is that the majority of these uncommon and valuable references trade hands privately (or have not traded hands in the internet era), and may never appear in auctions or public listings. There are many one-owner watches, family heirlooms, watches that have been sold privately, watches sold only in the 20th century, etc.

I realize that I am describing the "unknown surviving fraction", which is technically not your topic, but my intuition tells me that this fraction may actually be significantly larger than the numbers you are estimating. And the total surviving fraction is really the quantity of interest.

Agreed. Many serious collectors rigorously stay out of the limelight. The pieces they collect are very often sourced through private channels and will remain that way forever. They don’t want their potential purchase flashed before the world online or through social media.

[MILGAUSS88]

As a person that has seen Patek watches without cases, I would be surprised if gold cased watches have a higher rate of survival.

There is a long history of scrapping cases.

[Mark020]

Some more numbers were published: https://www.instagram.com/p/DALuPRLN...RlODBiNWFlZA==



Ref 5510: production 500. Examples found: 31. KSR: 6.2%

[Mark020]

Originally Posted by rootbeer7

Agreed. Many serious collectors rigorously stay out of the limelight. The pieces they collect are very often sourced through private channels and will remain that way forever. They don’t want their potential purchase flashed before the world online or through social media.

I fully agree with this but in the end this is what can be done with public data and it is funny to see that the numbers are kind of what I expected based on other brands.

For instance for the Longines sommatore (5699/23086) the KSR is 11%. Movado Polyplan is around 4% based on both serial and movement numbers.

[Dr.Smellody]

Originally Posted by Mark020

Some more numbers were published: https://www.instagram.com/p/DALuPRLN...RlODBiNWFlZA==



Ref 5510: production 500. Examples found: 31. KSR: 6.2%

That's amazing. I never thought Rolex would provide production figures. Wow.

[rootbeer7]

Originally Posted by Mark020

I fully agree with this but in the end this is what can be done with public data and it is funny to see that the numbers are kind of what I expected based on other brands.

For instance for the Longines sommatore (5699/23086) the KSR is 11%. Movado Polyplan is around 4% based on both serial and movement numbers.

Absolutely. I hope you didn’t think I was disparaging you? It’s a fascinating topic.

[Mark020]

Not at all! I hope to find new insights

[MRBolton]

I'm really curious to know the 126610LV and 126610LN production numbers.

Also curious to know what the 12 series production numbers' date is since it's still in production ("current as of xx/xx/xxx").

[Fredrik]

Originally Posted by MRBolton

I'm really curious to know the 126610LV and 126610LN production numbers.

Also curious to know what the 12 series production numbers' date is since it's still in production ("current as of xx/xx/xxx").

You can get a ballpark value from this thread:
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthre...=959786&page=6

The 116610 LN and LV were produced for about 10 years and have total production numbers of 414905 and 228710. So about 40k LN and 20k LV per year. I would personally assume the numbers are about the same still per year as at least my AD gets a lot of Submariners.

[1William]

More interesting data. The number for the LV's are higher than I would have estimated.

[MRBolton]

Originally Posted by Fredrik

You can get a ballpark value from this thread:
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthre...=959786&page=6

The 116610 LN and LV were produced for about 10 years and have total production numbers of 414905 and 228710. So about 40k LN and 20k LV per year. I would personally assume the numbers are about the same still per year as at least my AD gets a lot of Submariners.

Sorry, I originally thought I was replying to that thread!

Those numbers would make sense. An AD I spoke to recently told me that they get about 2.5 or so LN date for every LV date that they get. He said it wasn't quite 3 for every 1.

[Incroyable12]

Then there are the ones that were produced in vanishingly small numbers to begin with such as the Crown Collection models and the silver print stone dials.

Old platinum Day-Dates were also made in small numbers.

[Haywood_Milton]

@ rolexpassionreport :

Whoever claimed there were 100/200 5517s manufactured ?

My records indicate at least 350 "full" 5517s were manufactured ( that is, with 5517 between the lugs at 6 o'clock ).

Furthermore, Rolex commonly also consider to be 5517s those 5513s which collectors consider "Double Refs." Those are the minority of military issue 5513s (with 5513 between the lugs) that have 5517 stamped on the underside of a lug.

I find the Rolex figure for "5517s" closely consistent with my own records of true 5517s PLUS the number of Double Ref 5513/5517s.

Insta : haywood_milton_rolex

[1William]

Good information. Thank you.

[TuRo]

A very worthy exercise Mark.

My anecdotal observation is its tricky, cos a a few mega-collectors I know in Italy, Germany and Switzerland have tons (hundreds!) of the rare stuff eg 56-60 early subs, explorer, DD, milgauss, John Claude Killy, moonphase etc etc and they don't see light of day on the mkt, as they just swap them between each other to buy other watches, vintage cars, art and even houses ! So I suspect this uber hoarding skews the figures I suspect :-/

[studioal]

Mark, do you (or Rolex) have knowledge of Tudor Submariner production from the 60's to 80's. I've always wondered what production figures looked like Tudor of the same era as those Rolex figures posted above. Seems like we have a good idea of MN Tudors, but what about civilian blue Snowflakes or a 7922, for example.

Is it fair to say that any given Tudor reference is likely lower in production than a similar Rolex? I.e. a Tudor 7928 has lower production numbers than the Rolex 5513.

[Mark020]

No sorry. I don’t have data on Tudor