Where is Rolex in the pyramid of Swiss watchmakers?

[apeogre]

I want an Urwerk very badly.

[witch watch]

Ok let me start off by saying imho Rolex are NOT at the top of this pyramid as i think that all WIS would agree with, why? The criteria that would have to be met to reach this summit would be in no particular order and imo: History,innovation,desirability,craftmanship and respect. Now Rolex have all of these but do not truly excel at any level and i agree almost totally with Xpert37's view on it and Bulldogdaddy but Journe are just a tad to niche to be fully included in this list, although i would consider him/them more to be included than Smith as mentioned byKKWN98 as he is far to small and far to low an output and possibly just to unknown outside watch circles to be added to this "pyramid" and i don't agree that all of a sudden the really rich are now turning away from Journe either. Esquire's opening gambit is again very much spot on in my humble. Crono1G and few others really rate AP very highly, up there with PP i for one don't get this at all? And i must say i really had to chuckle at Zed Homme's comment that he rates Rolex like a well specc'd Toyota Camry, really?? lol. I'm sorry but i know that the Camry is a popular car in the US but it's NOT what us here in Europe would call luxury, no the Camry of watches-again from my point of view- would be Tag Heuer,Rolex has been compared perfectly already with BMW/Mercedes.

Just my two pennies worth.

[Roxas]

I think Rolex is in the high level but not at the top.

[Zed Homme]

Originally Posted by witch watch

And i must say i really had to chuckle at Zed Homme's comment that he rates Rolex like a well specc'd Toyota Camry, really?? lol. I'm sorry but i know that the Camry is a popular car in the US but it's NOT what us here in Europe would call luxury, no the Camry of watches-again from my point of view- would be Tag Heuer,Rolex has been compared perfectly already with BMW/Mercedes.

Please allow me to elaborate. I guess I should have used an entry level Lexus as opposed to a top of the line Camry. For one, Toyota/Lexus retains a better resale value than any other brand on the road which reminds me of Rolex. Furthermore, they have sufficiently powered motors that require very little maintenance and are bulletproof reliable. This too reminds me of Rolex. However, Toyota/Lexus motors are also quite bland and not imaginative which as you may have already guessed, reminds me of Rolex movements. While Rolex's high cost makes it a luxury item, I still view them in the spirit of a tool watch. Designed for a specific purpose and aiming to last forever. Therefore, the Toyota comparison is fitting for me, whereas BMW/Mercedes are more luxury oriented/trouble prone/ and not as apt to hold their value.

Please dont get me wrong, Rolex makes incredible watches for what they are, but in the spirit of the thread, I feel they are in the middle of the pyramid. However, that may suit most people's purposes well, just as more people can get more use out of a Toyota/Lexus than a Ferrari or RR...

[witch watch]

Originally Posted by Zed Homme

Please allow me to elaborate. I guess I should have used an entry level Lexus as opposed to a top of the line Camry. For one, Toyota/Lexus retains a better resale value than any other brand on the road which reminds me of Rolex. Furthermore, they have sufficiently powered motors that require very little maintenance and are bulletproof reliable. This too reminds me of Rolex. However, Toyota/Lexus motors are also quite bland and not imaginative which as you may have already guessed, reminds me of Rolex movements. While Rolex's high cost makes it a luxury item, I still view them in the spirit of a tool watch. Designed for a specific purpose and aiming to last forever. Therefore, the Toyota comparison is fitting for me, whereas BMW/Mercedes are more luxury oriented/trouble prone/ and not as apt to hold their value.

Please dont get me wrong, Rolex makes incredible watches for what they are, but in the spirit of the thread, I feel they are in the middle of the pyramid. However, that may suit most people's purposes well, just as more people can get more use out of a Toyota/Lexus than a Ferrari or RR...

Ok now i see where you are coming from it makes much more sense now.

Just for the record though i do not know anyone who had/has a BMW that have any problem with them.

[Zed Homme]

Originally Posted by witch watch

Ok now i see where you are coming from it makes much more sense now.

Just for the record though i do not know anyone who had/has a BMW that have any problem with them.

I've had quite a few of them and while I love them, they do have their share of issues. Just google BMW and water pump or sub frame to get the idea. I bought another one recently though and will continue as these minor issues are worth it to me. A watch comparion could be my zenith chronometer. It vibrates at over 30k beats an hour which makes for an incredibly smooth gliding hand. However, the trade off for that feature is a deminished service cycle. Therefore when Rolex fitted those movements in their daytona, they deliberately slowed the vibration rate down. Eventually they replaced the zenith movement with their 4130. The 4130 is more durable than the el primero, but I still think the el primero is the superior movement. Much like a high rpm ferrari versus a comparibly powered low rpm pushrod v8. I bet you were thinking I have a Lexus in the garage...

[rolexertion]

Originally Posted by Zed Homme

Agreed, I think these "Rolex uber alles" posts stem from a lack of experience or exposure to other brands....

More a lack of Positive experience with the other brands.

[witch watch]

Originally Posted by Zed Homme

I've had quite a few of them and while I love them, they do have their share of issues. Just google BMW and water pump or sub frame to get the idea. I bought another one recently though and will continue as these minor issues are worth it to me. A watch comparion could be my zenith chronometer. It vibrates at over 30k beats an hour which makes for an incredibly smooth gliding hand. However, the trade off for that feature is a deminished service cycle. Therefore when Rolex fitted those movements in their daytona, they deliberately slowed the vibration rate down. Eventually they replaced the zenith movement with their 4130. The 4130 is more durable than the el primero, but I still think the el primero is the superior movement. Much like a high rpm ferrari versus a comparibly powered low rpm pushrod v8. I bet you were thinking I have a Lexus in the garage...

Oh i have heard of people and read others having problems just nobody i know personally or see on a constant basis and i agree completely with you on the El P v 4130, Omega has done the very same thing with the Co-Axial movements although i would not rate those on the same level as the Primero and yes i did think you had a Lexus

[rolexertion]

Originally Posted by Zed Homme

Just because you are unaware of PP's performance, doesnt mean that they do not perform well.

I was looking for some kind of backup to your bold statement about Pateks being 'more accurate than Rolex'. I still haven't seen any. I won't hold my breath.

I wouldnt rely on posts found online to rate the performance of a subc. I have nine Rolexes and the most accurate one is my old 14060.

Oh, so I'm supposed to believe you over ten or twenty posters on this forum?

Really? Tell me what Rolex has done in the past 20 years to improve their accuracy? You do realize that the only reason they developed the blue spring is because ETA stopped supplying the old one right?

That's amazing. I didn't realize you were part of the inner circle of the Rolex executives, so that you would know that Rolex spent millions researching a new alloy 'only because ETA stopped supplying...' We must bow to your great knowledge and unarguable wisdom.

Study a little horology first my friend....

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm singling you out, but you represent the epitome of a stubborn Rolex owner...

I'm your friend? Thanks so much. Well then, you go ahead and 'single me out'. I can handle that.

PS, if you are so convinced Rolexes are so second-rate, why do you waste your time here? Wouldn't you be happier on a Patek site?

[Zed Homme]

rolexertion, I'm not going to discuss with you that the sky is blue because you'd deny simply because I posted the claim. Much of the info you are seeking is right here on trf. Patek holds their movements to tougher testing standards as claimed in post 83.

Dont believe me, thats ok, I wont lose sleep over the matter, however here is a thread posted about a sub owner who's watch does deviate more that 1 second a week, perhaps he is a liar as well....
http://rolexforums.com/showthread.ph...sub+c+accuracy

Not a sub, but you get the idea....perhaps they all lie too...
http://rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=162605
http://rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=9704
http://rolexforums.com/showthread.ph...rachrom+spring

A simple search brought these threads up. The difference between a 3185 and a 3186 movement is the presence of the parachrom (blue) spring. This has been debated here till the cows come home and it is common knowledge why Rolex developed the in house spring (in reference to ETA stopping the supply). No shady Rolex boardroom info here, just some common knowledge gained by being a TRF member for more that the six weeks that youve been here...

I like Rolexes and my time here. I have never claimed they were second rate, just not the top of the swiss watch making pyramid. Reread this thread with a little objectivity and you'll understand......or we may just all be lying to you...

Im sorry that you have not had any positive experiences with brands besides Rolex, its a shame because many others have.

[Welshwatchman]

Every month for the last 6 years we get this thread in one guise or another.

Many members here, myself included, own or have owned most pieces from the "prestige" watch brands and many exclusive examples are held in collections here.

Each and every brand brand can be critiqued, including the Acme of the mass produced wristwatch - Patek Phillipe.

Rolex as a watch and a brand is also open to plenty of criticism but the Rolex enthusiasts hold the brand in special regard so what else is going to happen to some clever bugger trying to "put us in our place", especially if they are not sufficiently well versed in horology, grammar and good manners to do this effectively.

Anyone wishing to piss on the floor here will be told to leave, no warning.

I note that the majority of members have given this one a wide berth since it is just the same lame "which is the best?" thread dressed up in a Vacheron Constantin paid advert posing as an article to start with.

[t e x]

Very interesting...the cruising industry uses a pyramid as well to position various brands.

[HL65]

Originally Posted by Welshwatchman

Every month for the last 6 years we get this thread in one guise or another.

Many members here, myself included, own or have owned most pieces from the "prestige" watch brands and many exclusive examples are held in collections here.

Each and every brand brand can be critiqued, including the Acme of the mass produced wristwatch - Patek Phillipe.

Rolex as a watch and a brand is also open to plenty of criticism but the Rolex enthusiasts hold the brand in special regard so what else is going to happen to some clever bugger trying to "put us in our place", especially if they are not sufficiently well versed in horology, grammar and good manners to do this effectively.

Anyone wishing to piss on the floor here will be told to leave, no warning.

I note that the majority of members have given this one a wide berth since it is just the same lame "which is the best?" thread dressed up in a Vacheron Constantin paid advert posing as an article to start with.

Thank you Paul!!! Man does it get old sometimes!

[ArcticMoose]

Originally Posted by Welshwatchman

I note that the majority of members have given this one a wide berth since it is just the same lame "which is the best?" thread dressed up in a Vacheron Constantin paid advert posing as an article to start with.

Trust me, I had no intention at all to put feces in motion. If I had anticipated people would be shouting answers to the thread title, without reading the post content or the attached "article" I would have worded it very differently.

But seriously, doesn't anyone else find the statements "there's actually a much circulated diagram not often revealed to the public" and "is handy for watch connoisseurs as it helps identify pieces worth investing in" the least bit interesting?

Who has issued this official-sounding document, how can it be much circulated if nobody has seen it, and what's up with these connoisseurs refusing to share information?

Obviously the horse is not getting up, but I don't really have any other use for this club.

[Rolex Junky]

On October 4 2010 I created the following thread:

I would almost be inclined to scan and post all the article charts but I am afraid of copyright infringement.

Rolex Ranks #1 on overall ranking list!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

According to the German watch magazine UHREN, Rolex tops the scales by taking the 1st place on the list (98.4); followed by Patek Philippe 2nd (96.2); A. Lange & Söhne 3rd (96) and Panerai 4th (94). Its a top40 list of European brands. The different watch maker companies were evaluated on sports models; elegant models and complications; afther which the scores were added to give a grand total. The list of criteria by which companies were judged was extensive and comprised of the following aspects:
design; prestige feel; quality; afthersales service & friendliness; technique; price/ quality; resalevalue; marketing; lifestyle and innovation.

I must however point out that Rolex only beat Patek and A.L&S because those brands hardly have sports lines.

Worth mentioning; the company with the worse score when it came to afthersales service & friendliness was AP (14th on the list) with a score of 4 out of a possible 10!

As for the more afordable brands Sinn beats the rest of the competition by taking the 28th place on the list.

So there you have it. JJ its official!

The following is a breakdown of pecentage alocated per class thus making the comparison of the so called "apples & pears" palatable:
Sports Elegance Complications
Rolex 50% 40% 10%
PP 20% 50% 30%
A.L&S 0% 60% 40%
OP 70% 20% 10%

[Nicko]

Well said Paul!

Originally Posted by Welshwatchman

Every month for the last 6 years we get this thread in one guise or another.

Many members here, myself included, own or have owned most pieces from the "prestige" watch brands and many exclusive examples are held in collections here.

Each and every brand brand can be critiqued, including the Acme of the mass produced wristwatch - Patek Phillipe.

Rolex as a watch and a brand is also open to plenty of criticism but the Rolex enthusiasts hold the brand in special regard so what else is going to happen to some clever bugger trying to "put us in our place", especially if they are not sufficiently well versed in horology, grammar and good manners to do this effectively.

Anyone wishing to piss on the floor here will be told to leave, no warning.

I note that the majority of members have given this one a wide berth since it is just the same lame "which is the best?" thread dressed up in a Vacheron Constantin paid advert posing as an article to start with.

[GTS Dean]

Originally Posted by ArcticMoose

Is there such a thing as an established pecking order pyramid diagram, and if so, where does Rolex sit?

Quite clearly - Rolex sits atop the Pyramid!