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Lisa · 21 August 2011, 03:28 AM

I just received this T serial Thunderbird DJ today. However, I have a couple of concerns - before I contact the seller, I want to run a question or two by you vintage guys.

I don't think the dial and hands match on this watch. I understand a T serial to date the watch at 1996 to 1999. The dial says "Swiss Made." That means that lume on the watch should be luminova, correct? However, the hands do not glow at all. Bright sunlight does nothing. So the hands must be tritium lumed.

What are your thoughts? Would Rolex have swapped out the dial during service for any reason? Would tritium lumed hands have been used on a T serial watch?

STEELINOX · 21 August 2011, 03:56 AM

I dont believe they are, alitl too narrow...

Lisa · 21 August 2011, 04:01 AM

So, Sink, what about the dial? Is it the right dial for a T serial watch? "swiss made" and no lume at the hour markers?

I'm trying to determine if it's the dial or the hands that aren't original to the watch.

Was tritium even in use in 1996? Referring to a post Padi made a while back, he writes that a dial marked "swiss made" would date it to around 2000 and newer. But the serial dates the watch to 1996-99. So maybe it's the dial that isn't original?

sdwtchlvr · 21 August 2011, 04:02 AM

T serial means the piece should have tritium all the way around (96'-97') so the dial looks to have been swapped at some point. The hands may or may not be original but if there is no glow at all after exposure to light, they are prob tritium. That really isn't as important as having matching lumi hands & dial or matching tritium hands & dial. The swiss made looks like it might be shifted ever so slightly to the right which is odd. Love the dial color though. The dial could have been swapped at service but Rolex would never swap the dial to lump and leave the hands tritium.

Orchi · 21 August 2011, 04:15 AM

Err Buddy Lisa...IF ever it could be possible to do...
Orchi would want to get the Dial out with tender loving care...
to inspect the Dial from its back...

Usually...the pics of markings on Dial back n Caseback could easily tell...
facts...

Lisa · 21 August 2011, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orchi

Err Buddy Lisa...IF ever it could be possible to do...
Orchi would want to get the Dial out with tender loving care...
to inspect the Dial from its back...

Usually...the pics of markings on Dial back n Caseback could easily tell...
facts...

Hey, Orchi. Thanks for your answer. What would the markings on the dial back and caseback look like? Would they tell us if the dial is original to the watch?

Lisa · 21 August 2011, 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdwtchlvr

T serial means the piece should have tritium all the way around (96'-97') so the dial looks to have been swapped at some point. The hands may or may not be original but if there is no glow at all after exposure to light, they are prob tritium. That really isn't as important as having matching lumi hands & dial or matching tritium hands & dial. The swiss made looks like it might be shifted ever so slightly to the right which is odd. Love the dial color though. The dial could have been swapped at service but Rolex would never swap the dial to lump and leave the hands tritium.

Thanks for the informaton. I'm with you; I thought a 1996-ish watch should have little lume dots by the hour markers, along with lumed hands. This appropriate hands for this dial should be plain, with no lume paint at all, right?

harry in montreal · 21 August 2011, 05:11 AM

Good looking watch lisa. is it a 1625 or a newer crystal model? i had an early 90s variant and miss it. :( harry

Lisa · 21 August 2011, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harry in montreal

Good looking watch lisa. is it a 1625 or a newer crystal model? i had an early 90s variant and miss it. :( harry

It's a 16264, Harry. I think it's a very attractive watch, but I want to find out what's been done to it over the years.

And the dial and hands do need to match; so that needs fixing. I guess the correct combo would be like the photo Sink posted; no lume on the hands or the dial.

STEELINOX · 21 August 2011, 05:34 AM

It looks like these are period correct hands, Lisa...

Numismatist · 21 August 2011, 05:55 AM

If there are NOT luminous/Tritium hour markers, then are there also NOT supposed to be on the hands?

Lisa · 21 August 2011, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numismatist

If there are NOT luminous/Tritium hour markers, then are there also NOT supposed to be on the hands?

I think so. No lume on dial should mean no lume on hands.

Lisa · 21 August 2011, 06:16 AM

Sink, thanks for the pic. No lume on hands OR dial. Do you know if the watch in your pic is a T serial?

STEELINOX · 21 August 2011, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa

Sink, thanks for the pic. No lume on hands OR dial. Do you know if the watch in your pic is a T serial?

Sorry Lisa, Im not sure about what serial it is; it certainly is possible to be a T...

Randy

Andelain · 21 August 2011, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa

I think so. No lume on dial should mean no lume on hands.

Lisa, I did some trolling on ebay. I've a huge fan of these T-Birds, so I had several on my watch list. Get it, "watch list"?

Anyway I came up with others that have lume hands and no lume on the face, including the one I have coming that you saw earlier.

Here's an more example.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mens-Rolex-2...item4157ca1b28

Lisa · 21 August 2011, 11:21 AM

Heh - watch list.

The ebay watch looks like it says "T swiss made T" on the dial, so it's got tritium lume... it almost looks like there could be tiny dots at the hour markers, especially at the 3, 8 and 10 o'clock positions... hard to tell.

I guess this is all part of the fun of buying pre-owned and/or vintage - always so much to learn. And sometimes challenging to find the answers.

Tools · 21 August 2011, 12:39 PM

A T serial, for Subs, etc. would put it at around '96 as first seen on the market, and for all models, through '99, so it could bridge into the Luminova era for the slower moving TOG. Regardless of the era, non-lume dials always say only Swiss or Swiss Made.. (no T's)

However, in this case I believe that the wrong hands have been put on at some point.. The non-lume dials have non-lume hands too..

Since you say that they do not glow, probably somebody put on "era correct" tritium hands rather than proper non-lume hands

Lisa · 21 August 2011, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tools

A T serial, for Subs, etc. would put it at around '96 as first seen on the market, and for all models, through '99, so it could bridge into the Luminova era for the slower moving TOG. Regardless of the era, non-lume dials always say only Swiss or Swiss Made.. (no T's)

However, in this case I believe that the wrong hands have been put on at some point.. The non-lume dials have non-lume hands too..

Since you say that they do not glow, probably somebody put on "era correct" tritium hands rather than proper non-lume hands

Larry, I was hoping you would chime in. Thank you!

ExpII · 21 August 2011, 11:27 PM

I bet Bob Ridley could source hands for this beauty.

Lisa · 23 August 2011, 12:31 AM

Update: Just got off the phone with DeMesy jewelers in Dallas, who sold me the watch. It was explained to me that the dial was newer than the watch; the previous owner had swapped it out at some point.

But get this: the watch I received was not the watch I thought I was buying. Here's a link to the watch, which is still on their site:

http://www.demesy.com/p/53152.html

Note that the dial on that watch is "T swiss made T," which would be appropriate to the the watch and the hands. THIS was the watch I ordered. It was NOT what I received. The seller explained that they use stock photos on their popular sellers. Stock photos? Are you kidding me? I asked why there was no disclaimer revealing this fact. Seller said he would bring this up with the company.

Anyone here find that practice completely unacceptable?

He's offering free return shipping to either return the watch, swap out the dial with the appropriate one (with tritium markers) or swap out non-lumed hands that would match the present, circa 2000 dial.

I'm going to think about it.

What would you do? Incidentally, DeMesy is listed here as a reputable seller of vintage Rolex.

Keeperoftime · 23 August 2011, 12:47 AM

I've heard of grey market dealers doing this quite often.

-I would return the watch and find another.

STEELINOX · 23 August 2011, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa

Update: Just got off the phone with DeMesy jewelers in Dallas, who sold me the watch. It was explained to me that the dial was newer than the watch; the previous owner had swapped it out at some point.

But get this: the watch I received was not the watch I thought I was buying. Here's a link to the watch, which is still on their site:

http://www.demesy.com/p/53152.html

Note that the dial on that watch is "T swiss made T," which would be appropriate to the the watch and the hands. THIS was the watch I ordered. It was NOT what I received. The seller explained that they use stock photos on their popular sellers. Stock photos? Are you kidding me? I asked why there was no disclaimer revealing this fact. Seller said he would bring this up with the company.

Anyone here find that practice completely unacceptable?

He's offering free return shipping to either return the watch, swap out the dial with the appropriate one (with tritium markers) or swap out non-lumed hands that would match the present, circa 2000 dial.

I'm going to think about it.

What would you do? Incidentally, DeMesy is listed here as a reputable seller of vintage Rolex.

The "stock" pic shows hands that are fatter than what you recieved too.

I think you should givem a chance to sort it "in a timely" manner, or give the thing back as "misrepresented" and go talk to one of our trusted sellers...

Lisa · 23 August 2011, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STEELINOX

The "stock" pic shows hands that are fatter than what you recieved too.

I think you should givem a chance to sort it "in a timely" manner, or give the thing back as "misrepresented" and go talk to one of our trusted sellers...

I put in a general WTB query but I know our sellers are busy... I seem to have a knack for wanting watches that are hard to find!

conrail · 23 August 2011, 12:47 AM

Stock photos? That is completely unacceptable, especially since they don't state that they are such. I'd return it and get your money back.

TurboWatch · 23 August 2011, 01:00 AM

$3550 is a bit much for that watch even with box and paper. For that asking price you could get a much better example.

Lisa · 23 August 2011, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TurboWatch

$3550 is a bit much for that watch even with box and paper. For that asking price you could get a much better example.

Possibly, though the salmon dial hasn't been quite as easy to find.

fusionstorm · 23 August 2011, 01:00 AM

Get your money and find your honey. What lazy chumps they are.......

Lisa · 23 August 2011, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fusionstorm

Get your money and find your honey. What lazy chumps they are.......

Ugh... I hate to start over... I just haven't come across many salmon dialed Thunderbirds in the recent weeks that I've been searching in earnest. But it bugs me to let this company have my business when they really have misrepresented the item.

Andelain · 23 August 2011, 01:41 AM

I agree with the others, return and start again. That seller sounds a little shady.

Lisa · 23 August 2011, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andelain

I agree with the others, return and start again. That seller sounds a little shady.

Seriously, I was incredulous that such a practice would be allowed.

21 August 2011, 03:28 AM	#1
Lisa "TRF" Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: oklahoma city Posts: 15,741	Are these hands original to the watch? I just received this T serial Thunderbird DJ today. However, I have a couple of concerns - before I contact the seller, I want to run a question or two by you vintage guys. I don't think the dial and hands match on this watch. I understand a T serial to date the watch at 1996 to 1999. The dial says "Swiss Made." That means that lume on the watch should be luminova, correct? However, the hands do not glow at all. Bright sunlight does nothing. So the hands must be tritium lumed. What are your thoughts? Would Rolex have swapped out the dial during service for any reason? Would tritium lumed hands have been used on a T serial watch?

21 August 2011, 03:56 AM	#2
STEELINOX 2024 SubLV41 Pledge Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Real Name: Sink-O! Location: a praire in AZ Watch: ROLEX-less atm... Posts: 14,021	I dont believe they are, alitl too narrow... __________________ *Positive Waves Baby* Lug Hole Loyalist / Chamfer Line Inspector INFORTHE WIN SUB-MAH-REEEN-ER ~ !

21 August 2011, 05:34 AM	#10
STEELINOX 2024 SubLV41 Pledge Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Real Name: Sink-O! Location: a praire in AZ Watch: ROLEX-less atm... Posts: 14,021	It looks like these are period correct hands, Lisa... __________________ *Positive Waves Baby* Lug Hole Loyalist / Chamfer Line Inspector INFORTHE WIN SUB-MAH-REEEN-ER ~ !

21 August 2011, 05:55 AM	#11
Numismatist "TRF" Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Real Name: Chris Location: Camden ME & STT Watch: 116600 Posts: 6,350	If there are NOT luminous/Tritium hour markers, then are there also NOT supposed to be on the hands? __________________ Rolex 116600 Sea-dweller Montblanc Solitaire Doué Black & White Legrand FP Montblanc Solitaire Doué Black & White RB Montblanc Meisterstück Diamond Mozart BP Montblanc Meisterstück Mozart BP

21 August 2011, 12:39 PM	#17
Tools TRF Moderator & 2024 SubLV41 Patron Join Date: May 2007 Real Name: Larry Location: Mojave Desert Watch: GMT's Posts: 43,514	A T serial, for Subs, etc. would put it at around '96 as first seen on the market, and for all models, through '99, so it could bridge into the Luminova era for the slower moving TOG. Regardless of the era, non-lume dials always say only Swiss or Swiss Made.. (no T's) However, in this case I believe that the wrong hands have been put on at some point.. The non-lume dials have non-lume hands too.. Since you say that they do not glow, probably somebody put on "era correct" tritium hands rather than proper non-lume hands __________________ (Chill ... It's just a watch Forum.....) NAWCC Member

21 August 2011, 04:01 AM	#3
Lisa "TRF" Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: oklahoma city Posts: 15,741	So, Sink, what about the dial? Is it the right dial for a T serial watch? "swiss made" and no lume at the hour markers? I'm trying to determine if it's the dial or the hands that aren't original to the watch. Was tritium even in use in 1996? Referring to a post Padi made a while back, he writes that a dial marked "swiss made" would date it to around 2000 and newer. But the serial dates the watch to 1996-99. So maybe it's the dial that isn't original?

21 August 2011, 04:02 AM	#4
sdwtchlvr "TRF" Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: SoCal Watch: Rolex Posts: 1,308	T serial means the piece should have tritium all the way around (96'-97') so the dial looks to have been swapped at some point. The hands may or may not be original but if there is no glow at all after exposure to light, they are prob tritium. That really isn't as important as having matching lumi hands & dial or matching tritium hands & dial. The swiss made looks like it might be shifted ever so slightly to the right which is odd. Love the dial color though. The dial could have been swapped at service but Rolex would never swap the dial to lump and leave the hands tritium.

21 August 2011, 04:15 AM	#5
Orchi Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Malaysia Posts: 2,934	Err Buddy Lisa...IF ever it could be possible to do... Orchi would want to get the Dial out with tender loving care... to inspect the Dial from its back... Usually...the pics of markings on Dial back n Caseback could easily tell... facts...

21 August 2011, 05:11 AM	#8
harry in montreal "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Montreal Watch: The Habs pick 1st! Posts: 3,589	Good looking watch lisa. is it a 1625 or a newer crystal model? i had an early 90s variant and miss it. :( harry

21 August 2011, 06:16 AM	#13
Lisa "TRF" Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: oklahoma city Posts: 15,741	Sink, thanks for the pic. No lume on hands OR dial. Do you know if the watch in your pic is a T serial?

21 August 2011, 11:21 AM	#16
Lisa "TRF" Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: oklahoma city Posts: 15,741	Heh - watch list. The ebay watch looks like it says "T swiss made T" on the dial, so it's got tritium lume... it almost looks like there could be tiny dots at the hour markers, especially at the 3, 8 and 10 o'clock positions... hard to tell. I guess this is all part of the fun of buying pre-owned and/or vintage - always so much to learn. And sometimes challenging to find the answers.

21 August 2011, 11:27 PM	#19
ExpII Banned Join Date: Mar 2011 Real Name: chris Location: Boston, MA Watch: Milgauss, PAM 359 Posts: 390	I bet Bob Ridley could source hands for this beauty.

23 August 2011, 12:31 AM	#20
Lisa "TRF" Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: oklahoma city Posts: 15,741	Update: Just got off the phone with DeMesy jewelers in Dallas, who sold me the watch. It was explained to me that the dial was newer than the watch; the previous owner had swapped it out at some point. But get this: the watch I received was not the watch I thought I was buying. Here's a link to the watch, which is still on their site: http://www.demesy.com/p/53152.html Note that the dial on that watch is "T swiss made T," which would be appropriate to the the watch and the hands. THIS was the watch I ordered. It was NOT what I received. The seller explained that they use stock photos on their popular sellers. Stock photos? Are you kidding me? I asked why there was no disclaimer revealing this fact. Seller said he would bring this up with the company. Anyone here find that practice completely unacceptable? He's offering free return shipping to either return the watch, swap out the dial with the appropriate one (with tritium markers) or swap out non-lumed hands that would match the present, circa 2000 dial. I'm going to think about it. What would you do? Incidentally, DeMesy is listed here as a reputable seller of vintage Rolex.

23 August 2011, 12:47 AM	#21
Keeperoftime "TRF" Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Real Name: Jeremy Location: Louisiana Watch: Rolex Posts: 2,732	I've heard of grey market dealers doing this quite often. -I would return the watch and find another.

23 August 2011, 12:47 AM	#24
conrail "TRF" Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Boston Posts: 3,177	Stock photos? That is completely unacceptable, especially since they don't state that they are such. I'd return it and get your money back. __________________ "Oh, you give a f****' aspirin a headache, pal!"

23 August 2011, 01:00 AM	#25
TurboWatch "TRF" Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: NorCal Posts: 1,641	Return the watch and get your money back $3550 is a bit much for that watch even with box and paper. For that asking price you could get a much better example.

23 August 2011, 01:00 AM	#27
fusionstorm "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Piedmont, CA Watch: various vintage Posts: 2,272	Get your money and find your honey. What lazy chumps they are....... __________________ 1680 MK II 2.2M (my daily); 1655 MK IV 8.1M (my 1st vintage); 16660 x 4 - 8.0M spider & matte 7.4M, 8.0M, 8.0M; 16610LV F MK I/MK I; 116528 Z; 14060 M COSC; Tudor 75090 Gone.....never forgotten: 14000 F, 14060 V COSC, PAM 048, 16623 F, 1680 MK V 3.1M, 16800 matte 8.3M & 1655 MK IV 7.4M

23 August 2011, 01:41 AM	#29
Andelain "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: The Sandbox Watch: ing your 6...... Posts: 1,379	I agree with the others, return and start again. That seller sounds a little shady. __________________ .

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