Red Sub check

[brian8121]

Hey everyone, I'm a longtime collector of new Swiss watches (mostly JLC, Rolex, PP, and IWC), but a total noob when it comes to vintage. I'm looking to buy a Red Sub - all original, no re-lume and an untouched dial a requirement - but I'm obviously wary of fakes.

Can any tell me what they think of these two:

http://www.hqmilton.com/index.php/si...rom_7_20_2011/

I know that's one of Jacek's but I haven't been able to get into contact with him.

Then there's this Mark II dial:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ROLEX-Red-Su...#ht_500wt_1212

How's it look to the experts eyes here?

Excuse my naivety, I'm new to this and trying to learn. Thanks in advance and apologies if this is the wrong forum.

B

[Submarino]

I would go with Jacek's one just because I've dealt with him before and you know you are getting the real deal!

[Beaumont Miller II]

The second pics are from Mark Lerman. Why is the seller using Lerman's pics?

[kyle L]

Originally Posted by Beaumont Miller II

The second pics are from Mark Lerman. Why is the seller using Lerman's pics?

+1, and the other pics look like they're from Jacek.

[Brit78]

Brian,

Feel free to contact me. I sold that one to Jacek. It's a nice piece. Shame to see that RSC polished the case. I didn't think it needed it. I'm certainly no expert though on vintage pieces so perhaps it did.

Thanks,

Tim

[Rickster]

IMHO- mk2 dial is way cooler and for only $2500 more a no brainer. that being said he is using someone elses pics so in case he bought it from Mark and never wore it it probably isn't exactly the same as pictured. I'd make sure you get some more current photos

[cruvon]

I would say the Mk2 is a better buy if you don't mind paying extra since it has military provenance too. Just make sure everythings original though and verify the condition/polishing too. Maybe ask the seller if he can have Mark confirm via email if the watch was from him and in perfectly original condition so that you have all angles covered?

[brian8121]

Thanks for the replies guys! I asked the Mark 2 if the dial had been re-lumed or refinished and if all parts were original, and he said they are ("Not refinished, all original"). But you're right for peace of mind I'll contact him and see if Mark can confirm. I suppose I can go ahead with an eBay transaction and assume I'm covered, but it's a big chunk of change to put on the table.

Thanks again guys. We'll update once a purchase is made (or not).
B

[cruvon]

Hi Brian, how did you go with info on this?..Surprised bidding stopped at 11k for a Mk2
http://www.ebay.com/itm/190585083821...#ht_500wt_1413

[inspires]

I contacted the seller before and he did say that he purchased the 1680 from Mark Lerman, even gave me his full name to check with Mark.

Although I have not checked with Mark, if the piece did indeed came from Mark you should be fine.

[brian8121]

I ended up checking with Mark and he indeed sold the watch to the seller (sean), so everything checks out. I was the high bidder but we couldn't come to an agreement on a price.

Thanks again for all your help guys.

[jeff wilson]

Mark Lerman you may need to check the thread about box and papers

[Michael M.]

Originally Posted by kyle L

+1, and the other pics look like they're from Jacek.

Jacek works for HQ Milton.

As for the 2 1680's in question...I'd definitely pass on the MK2 MF B&P. The 1680 MK6 FF from Jacek looks like a nice piece though, it's a real plus that it has the original paper, along with a recent RSC paper. Another nice 1680 I think you should look at is this:

http://10pastten.com/inventory/detai...?item_id=TA520

It's from Eric Ku (great dealer), its a MK1 MF w/ box and papers in immaculate condition, one of the best I've seen IMHO

[cruvon]

Hi Brian, have mailed you about these allegations stating them exactly as they are since were posted days after this thread where you requested the red sub check when the allegations didn't exist. If you've already bought the watch, and you do have doubts about the watch's authenticity because of the developments and allegations in the last few days, I would suggest you ask Bob Ridley or a good RSC(ask around) to service your watch and confirm authenticity, that will also add to the watch's provenance. About papers, you might have to ask around on the forums to confirm if you believe somethings amiss or have an expert to look at them. If you haven't bought the watch yet, then I suggest you do more thorough research before buying one.
That being said, after all these developments and worried about maybe having got my first vintage watch purchase wrong, esp since I really love my birth year watch and think it's beautiful, I have got my watch that bought from Mark privately verified from a respected source which included the watch case, case reference/serial fonts, etc. and other parts after all the allegations and has come out as totally original. I could have sent it to Bob Ridley or a RSC too, but has been serviced when I bought it from Mark so no use doing that yet for me. Some here have also got their watches from Mark verified from the RSC when they had bought them.
Thought will check out my papers too since the actual allegations were some watches papers could have been not authentic or punched later (Note however that if period correct original papers are punched later as alleged, we would never know, if non authentic papers are used, is a immediate giveaway to the trained eye) .But have been told is unlikely that the papers have been punched later on my watch's papers. Can't be 100% sure obviously with any papers as they are indistinguishable if punching is done on period correct papers. I have confirmed that mine are the period correct papers that came with the watch reference at the time and that the fonts of the punched numbers are correct too for the period as also the paper reference number. Plus the paper has properly aged.
The only drawback which is nothing to do with originality but great to have is that I don't have the watch's original sales receipt, possibly because it might have been resold by dealers a few times. I also don't have the dealer stamp marked on the guarantee paper but that was common in the day. But if a watch does have a dealer stamp and the sales receipt, as also verification of the original owner of the watch, is even better for judging provenance. Guess next time I buy a full set I will want all of that added provenance of a sales receipt, first owner verification, etc. or go for a loose watch, I as most of us didn't know any better then that there are different levels of provenance but now do:),
Cheers

[brian8121]

Hey guys, ended up purchasing the Red Sub from Jacek (the one I linked to above), I'll receive the watch tomorrow. I can't praise his level and communication and flexibility enough, and I'm looking forward to receiving the watch.

As for the Red Sub mark II, I couldn't come to an agreement on a price with Sean (the eBayer who had originally purchased from Mark Lerman). Shame about the allegations, hope they're not true.

[cruvon]

Congrats Brian, she's a beauty from Jacek, now post some pictures:)

[Jason71]

Congrats Brian.......that one looks pretty cherry