Rare Submariner 5513 at Auction

[JohnBaker3]

Hey Guys:

Found a link over at VRF for this rare 5513 with an Explorer Dial.

http://andersonandgarland.com/BidCat...2=4169&F4=1054

Only dial like that I have ever seen was on the 6200 series....

Very cool!

[Vincent65]

Yes, there was some debate about this one a while ago over on VRF - very interesting and seems legit. No 'M' after the 200...

[marcello pisani]

dial is ok !
it's probably the rarest and most interesting " explorer dial " for 5512/3
this dial is sometimes nick-named " military explorer dial " ( don't really know why..)

[JohnBaker3]

What I found intesting is that the font of the dial numbers seems "thinner" than either the Explorer or 6200 Sub of that era...



Photo by RPR...

[MATCH1969]

Interesting !

[datejust24]

wow...extremely rare example.

[Haywood_Milton]

The auction house's processed photographs rather flatter the condition of the dial, to say the least.
Happy to see you agree with my VRF comments about the dial, Marcello. Do you agree also with my comments about the dial and this batch of case numbers ?
I won't repeat all that has been said at the other place, but it may interest members here to learn that this watch is from a very early batch of 5513s which was produced immediately after a batch of 5512s --- which was itself immediately preceded by a batch of 5508 Subs ! All three variants in an unbroken production run.
With kind regards,
Haywood Milton

[JohnBaker3]

Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

All three variants in an unbroken production run.
With kind regards,
Haywood Milton

A man of few words since 2008 and I'm guessing that you are related to HQ Milton...

Thanks for the most helpful information, sir !

[Haywood_Milton]

Originally Posted by JohnBaker3

A man of few words since 2008 and I'm guessing that you are related to HQ Milton...

Thanks for the most helpful information, sir !

You are very kind but no, Haywood Milton is simply my real name and I have no connection to HQ Milton.

HM

[JohnBaker3]

Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

You are very kind but no, Haywood Milton is simply my real name and I have no connection to HQ Milton.

HM

I guess it could be worse; you could share the name of something un-listable.

Have a great weekend !

[Levi62]

The auction house only polished the dome with strict instructions not to touch the dial and the dial is unscratched. The earlier pics in circulation were sent to Rolex dealers before the dome was polished. Please refer to the pics in this link and note the middle picture 'on the wrist' is one before the polishing. The final pic is of the dial close up.

http://www.hodinkee.com/blog/whats-s...r-and-eberhard

[alanski]

what a load of tosh ...yeah if only we could all polish a glass and magically make our dials underneath them into perfect examples....




http://www.vrfimages.com/images/image.jpeg




.the pictures on other forums clearly show the clear coat of the watch has deteriorated and blistered , as isn't that unusual , and the auction house have photoshopped it by fiddling with the blacks and contrast to try and present it as better condition watch than it is which is is a disgraceful practice and one you seem happy to go along with ...especially when you are talking about the difference between it being a £50k watch and a £100k watch,




hadn't even noticed what marcello saw that it was relumed !!!...some poor sod is gonna get taken

[Mark020]

Originally Posted by Levi62

The auction house only polished the dome with strict instructions not to touch the dial and the dial is unscratched. The earlier pics in circulation were sent to Rolex dealers before the dome was polished. Please refer to the pics in this link and note the middle picture 'on the wrist' is one before the polishing. The final pic is of the dial close up.

http://www.hodinkee.com/blog/whats-s...r-and-eberhard

Dude: please disclose you are the seller.

[Maxy]

Originally Posted by Mark020

Dude: please disclose you are the seller.

Good catch!

[Haywood_Milton]

This watch and its seller(s) have had coverage of such a nature that I suspect it may not reach its reserve later this week.

The condition of the dial is indeed imperfect, as will be the case with most, but re-luming would add another dimension. Having said that, let us not lose sight of the fact that any Explorer dial Submariner is very rare and the "uncalibrated 200" is particularly unusual. We can hope that this time, at least, any potential buyer enters the sale fully aware of what he is bidding on. The watch still holds considerable value, though no longer what it might have done.

My own fear is that, in light of the publicised ill-will surrounding this sale, the dial will ultimately be taken from this watch and find its way into another Submariner, without the published case-number to link it. Note the dial well, just in case. This scenario is not intended to be any comment about the current owner.

With kind regards,

Haywood Milton

[Mark020]

Originally Posted by Maxy

Good catch!

Well: it wasn't me who found out. See VRF.

[JohnBaker3]

Wow....

I started this thread to give everyone a heads-up on a very rare Sub going to auction...

It has changed into a strange view of the dark side of vintage Rolex auctions and the "possibility" that a watch may not be everything it is advertised to be...

The scary part is that the auction house is up to it's eyebrows in everthing being discussed, not just the seller.

I have read the complete thread over on VRF; those guys don't pull any punches!

CAVEAT EMPTOR .......

[Haywood_Milton]

Sold for £65,000 GBP plus commission.

HM

[CrownMe]

Wait so sellers photo shop there Ad pictures?

Mind....blown

[Kingair]

Originally Posted by Mark020

Dude: please disclose you are the seller.

You got him !

Thanks

HAGOne buddy

[Mark020]

Originally Posted by CrownMe

Wait so sellers photo shop there Ad pictures?

Mind....blown

If it wouldn't be so sad it would be funny. On every watch forum you would would banned if you shop pics but the auction houses of this world can shop without any real consequences.

[kirker]

Just FYI, I realize the watch in this case was sold by a non-U.S. entity, but buyers of both this watch and others in general have several types of legal recourse. There's a rather substantial difference between cleaning up an image in Photoshop simply for the purposes of eliminating things like crystal glare, but altering images for the express purpose of hiding actual damage (or even excessive wear) falls broadly into the area of fraudulent misrepresentation as well as the DTPA (Deceptive Trade Practices Act). Even if an auction house, like this one, doesn't vouch for a watch's full authenticity, that still doesn't give them license to sell you a b.s. bill of goods.

Btw this is the specific reason why every good auction house (e.g. Sotheby's and Christie's and the like) goes to great pains to provide condition reports for each lot, along with detailed descriptions of any and all flaws with an item.

[Mark020]

Every one? Well: please read this report by Philipp Stahl.

This is what you don’t see online or in the catalogue, the circular damage the hor hand made on this glossy Big Crown dial ;-(

[kirker]

Every one. See for yourself:

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/w...1-details.aspx

I'm unclear exactly which "damage" the person quoted is referring to, but if you zoom in very closely on the watch, you can see the condition of both hands as well as the wear at the top of the bezel. Btw I put "damage" in quotes because one man's "damage" is another man's "patina." (I also find it interesting that collectors in many areas, including watches, claim to dislike pieces that are polished or refurbished to like-new, but then turn around and complain if there's the slightest thing "wrong" with something they've bought.)

Btw "Lot Notes" are not the same thing as condition reports; you can request the latter from Christie's via email or phone. (I'm not entirely sure why they don't include it on their Web listings.)

[SkooterNB]

I always always always tell people to either view in person or get real life photos with condition reports. Saves grief on everyone's part.

[Mark020]

Originally Posted by kirker

Every one. See for yourself:


I'm unclear exactly which "damage" the person quoted is referring to, but if you zoom in very closely on the watch, you can see the condition of both hands as well as the wear at the top of the bezel. Btw I put "damage" in quotes because one man's "damage" is another man's "patina." (I also find it interesting that collectors in many areas, including watches, claim to dislike pieces that are polished or refurbished to like-new, but then turn around and complain if there's the slightest thing "wrong" with something they've bought.)

You don't see the circular damage? Here is the picture from the catalogue you are referring to. Clearly shopped: no circle to be seen

Originally Posted by kirker

Btw "Lot Notes" are not the same thing as condition reports; you can request the latter from Christie's via email or phone. (I'm not entirely sure why they don't include it on their Web listings.)

Because that makes it easier to fool people who are not in the position to view in person

[Vincent65]

It's drag marks from the hour hand, and was discussed quite a while back, as already noted here. The dial surface has light wear, but it's still a great watch IMO. Full disclosure should always be given, and the light wear on the dial's gloss surface should be declared.
It wouldn't prevent me from buying it, but it would have to be reflected in the price.