Heads Up! Rolex 1665 Double Red SD on Ebay (Full Set)

[Rameez-Q]

I just came across the double red sea dweller, personally I don't like it but I know many will in here & thought I'll post it in here for someone to hopefully add to their collection

Seems a good one with full box and papers

Link here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Role...item2c97c56504

[swish77]

Way over-polished case, IMHO, and the lug holes look bowed in, if that makes sense. It's a shame because if everything else checked out, it would indeed be a peach. The case condition would be a deal-breaker for me, though, especially when you get into this price point, which I assume will be well north of $20K.

[Rameez-Q]

Originally Posted by swish77

Way over-polished case, IMHO, and the lug holes look bowed in, if that makes sense. It's a shame because if everything else checked out, it would indeed be a peach. The case condition would be a deal-breaker for me, though, especially when you get into this price point, which I assume will be well north of $20K.

Just checked the price, went from 4-5k earlier to 15k

[SUBversive]

Just amazing the number of 1970s watches - complete sets - turning up for sale these days.

[jfmiii]

as boomers start to pass away and their heirs begin to sell their inheritances, im sure we will see more full sets come up.

[CharlieMae]

To the best of my knowledge, 5 hole punch numbers do not exist on European certificates. This seller only sells "full sets" with 5 hole punched numbers.

US papers are the only ones that are supposed to have 5 hole punches and European certificates should have 6 hole punches.

Based on my observations, and the history from this particular seller, I would not feel comfortable bidding on this watch. His certificate happens to be European and has 5 hole punches.

[willang]

I saw this earlier and researched into the seller. A lot of controversies here and on VRF in the past. Look at the photos linked in photobucket for name to search.

Please tread carefully, do your research and decide for yourself. Seems like a lot of full sets are added after the fact.

[CharlieMae]

This seller never has and never will participate on any forums. He has proven that he doesnt need to because his watches command top dollar on ebay.

To me that is always a red flag, but I have come to understand why most of the big dealers dont bother posting on forums, as their watches come under heavy scrutiny and most of us wont pay those types of prices anyway.

Sometimes knowing too much takes the fun out of it. I'm sure the buyers of this sellers watches are very happy with them and don't bother looking too deeply into certificate countries, punch hole numbers and incorrect or missing jewelers stamps.

[Mark020]

Originally Posted by CharlieMae

This seller never has and never will participate on any forums.

Not true

[CharlieMae]

Please post a link to any post on any forum this seller has ever made..

Till you do it is true..

[springer]

Originally Posted by CharlieMae

To the best of my knowledge, 5 hole punch numbers do not exist on European certificates. This seller only sells "full sets" with 5 hole punched numbers.

US papers are the only ones that are supposed to have 5 hole punches and European certificates should have 6 hole punches.

Based on my observations, and the history from this particular seller, I would not feel comfortable bidding on this watch. His certificate happens to be European and has 5 hole punches.

I would concur with Charlie.

This is correct. All French papers have 6 (six) vertical rows with punch holes for each number, at least this is what I have observed with all the papers that I have in my possession or observed elsewhere. This would be true on papers from the 1960s and 1970s.

The USA version of the punched warranty paper, written in English, have 5 (five) vertical rows for punch marks for each number during the same time period just mentioned.

The paper for sale with this red Sea Dweller is French and has 5 (five) vertical rows of punches for each number. Hmmmm....I believe these incorrectly punched warranty papers have been discussed in the past on other forums, as well as the seller in this auction.

[jedly1]

No dog in this fight but ....

http://rolex.watchprosite.com/show-f.../ti-649211/s-0

Given it's a sticky at the top of the vintage page on this very forum

And to be fair mark has posted on other forums in the past and attended gtg's
.

[oldLeatherNeck]

Originally Posted by jedly1

No dog in this fight but ....

http://rolex.watchprosite.com/show-f.../ti-649211/s-0

Given it's a sticky at the top of the vintage page on this very forum

And to be fair mark has posted on other forums in the past and attended gtg's
.

Andrew,

It's obvious that some posters here don't know who the guy is . ML has some excellent write ups on the Red subs for those who don't know
And these can be found on all forums

[jedly1]

Originally Posted by oldLeatherNeck

Andrew,

It's obvious that some posters here don't know who the guy is . ML has some excellent write ups on the Red subs for those who don't know
And these can be found on all forums

true....though personally, putting on my old cumudgeon hat and maybe looking back through rose tinted specs , i still hold the notion that the classifications of red dials both sea dweller and submariner belongs to a name not many here will probably know....christian veltman, ( and an active member of the original TURF forum) the founder of the original first version of the vintage rolex forum circa 2000...who first noted the distinct differences in dials versions ....everything else has been an editing, presentation and refining exercise since then :):):)....unfortunately feeling his work had been hijacked he left the hobby and returned to his main passion of music ......

[marcello pisani]

good old Christian !!!

[jedly1]

Originally Posted by marcello pisani

good old Christian !!!

yup ..... wherever you are christian.

[CharlieMae]

Jed: Your link doesnt work for me and in my 6 years on the forums (give or take) I have never seen him post.

As far as the reviews on red subs..so what? The fact that ML can cut and paste and add a bit to make it "his" doesnt change the fact that history has proven that his papers are "subject to review" for lack of a better word..

[professorv]

Question: any concern about the watch itself (beyond what swish noted)?

[lhanddds]

Originally Posted by CharlieMae

Jed: Your link doesnt work for me and in my 6 years on the forums (give or take) I have never seen him post.

As far as the reviews on red subs..so what? The fact that ML can cut and paste and add a bit to make it "his" doesnt change the fact that history has proven that his papers are "subject to review" for lack of a better word..

I seem to remember this seller being called out for fake papers in the past.

[jedly1]

Originally Posted by CharlieMae

Jed: Your link doesnt work for me and in my 6 years on the forums (give or take) I have never seen him post.

As far as the reviews on red subs..so what? The fact that ML can cut and paste and add a bit to make it "his" doesnt change the fact that history has proven that his papers are "subject to review" for lack of a better word..

I'm sorry but I'm in no way saying anything about his papers , for or against ,its a widely discussed topic on the forums so i don't see theres anything left to say about that and anyone who can read can form a clear opinion i'd have though.

so what ?....the link i have put up is a post on a forum by the person in question who you claimed had never posted on any forum and you beoived that statement was true until you were shown otherwise.

the person in question has posted on several forums , under both user names as per normal and also in his own name as per the link shown over the years, and of course the forums have been going a lot longer than 6 years.

the person in question has never to the best of my knowledge responded on a public forum to the allegations made against him regarding the papers , which maybe is what you mean.


the only point I'm making is that he has been in the past a forum member and contributor and i would very much imagine is a member of most forums still today and may even contribute using a username as most people do.

[ianmcg]

Originally Posted by CharlieMae

Jed: Your link doesnt work for me and in my 6 years on the forums (give or take) I have never seen him post.

This is the link - there was a character missing

http://rolex.watchprosite.com/show-f...ti-649211/s-0/

[CharlieMae]

Thank you for correcting the link.

I stand behind my statement that the seller Mark Lerman has not and does not post on forums and to the best of my knowledge, never posted on forums.

I previously mentioned that the only thing he has ever posted was a red sub "fact sheet" that most of us know was a cut and paste job from other reviews and references on red subs. He certainly did add to the facts, but for the most part he combined everything into one coherent post about it.

With the exception of that review, I have never seen a single post of his and his username on the purist website shows a total of 5 posts in his lifetime. 2 of which were for watch sales and the other 3 related to the red sub reference post. AND, those were made 5 years ago in 2010.

The guy does not post on forums, in fact none of the 5 "posts" were posts at all and were for sales and a review.

To me that speaks volumes about an individual, but that is my opinion you are entitled to yours..

[jedly1]

Originally Posted by CharlieMae

Thank you for correcting the link.

I stand behind my statement that the seller Mark Lerman has not and does not post on forums and to the best of my knowledge, never posted on forums.

I previously mentioned that the only thing he has ever posted was a red sub "fact sheet" that most of us know was a cut and paste job from other reviews and references on red subs. He certainly did add to the facts, but for the most part he combined everything into one coherent post about it.

With the exception of that review, I have never seen a single post of his and his username on the purist website shows a total of 5 posts in his lifetime. 2 of which were for watch sales and the other 3 related to the red sub reference post. AND, those were made 5 years ago in 2010.

The guy does not post on forums, in fact none of the 5 "posts" were posts at all and were for sales and a review.

To me that speaks volumes about an individual, but that is my opinion you are entitled to yours..

sorry but that is incorrect , mark was an active poster for several years in his own name ....and i would be confident still posts and reads though i would imagine in a username that does not attract debate.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/20759...or+4,+Bracelet

http://www.network54.com/Forum/20759...+red+sub+dial-

http://www.network54.com/Forum/20759...rom+in+LONDON-

http://www.network54.com/Forum/20759.../16800+on+eBay

[zacharyjames]

Jed seems to be one of the most knowledgeable people I have seen here and it seems that he is a very valuable resource and perhaps a bit more consideration

[CharlieMae]

Its always a fine line when you contest anything a mod or long standing member has to say. It's as if G_D himself has spoken and if you dare question or challenge his word you will receive the Lords wrath.

The 5 posts Jed posted were made back in 2008, over 7 years ago. If you read my post I clearly stated "in my 6 years on the forums (give or take) I have never seen him post."

So, if the only posts anyone can provide from this seller are from 2008 then I guess my not seeing him post in my 6 years is accurate, is it not?

Funny that one of the posts Jed linked was of ML asking the forum if a particular Red Sub Dial looked correct, and yet he is quoted as the authority on Red Subs based on his detailed Red Sub dial variations post.

I've made my point, I am not here to argue with Jed or any forum members. Draw your own conclusions from however or wherever you gather your information..

[jedly1]

Originally Posted by CharlieMae

Its always a fine line when you contest anything a mod or long standing member has to say. It's as if G_D himself has spoken and if you dare question or challenge his word you will receive the Lords wrath.

The 5 posts Jed posted were made back in 2008, over 7 years ago. If you read my post I clearly stated "in my 6 years on the forums (give or take) I have never seen him post."

So, if the only posts anyone can provide from this seller are from 2008 then I guess my not seeing him post in my 6 years is accurate, is it not?

Funny that one of the posts Jed linked was of ML asking the forum if a particular Red Sub Dial looked correct, and yet he is quoted as the authority on Red Subs based on his detailed Red Sub dial variations post.

I've made my point, I am not here to argue with Jed or any forum members. Draw your own conclusions from however or wherever you gather your information..

errr ...not being funny charlie , but you aren't challenging anything I've said , I'm just correcting what you said , because it was wrong, though I'm sure was well intentioned ...

the bottom post of the small sample i linked to was from 2010 inside your '6 years' as are others if you search for them, I'm pretty sure theres some into 2011 too when the allegations broke from memory. , (searching i grant you isn't an easy thing to do on VRF) , ...from memory he was also active on TZ in his own name.

but your contention was not just that he had never posted in the last 6 years , but clearly that he had never posted on forums in your words....

***I stand behind my statement that the seller Mark Lerman has not and does not post on forums and to the best of my knowledge, never posted on forums***.

this is important because to imply that he never had anything to do with forums is wrong when the truth is that he disappeared from the forums after the allegations were made, forums he had participated in up until that point , so its not like he didn't know where they were or how to take part in them or how to defend the allegations and knowing that may impact peoples thoughts on the matter.


as for never SEEING a post since...let me say this , i have yet to see a person banned on a monday that wasn't back on the forum by tuesday using a different name and an ip blocker.

[Mark020]

Originally Posted by CharlieMae

Please post a link to any post on any forum this seller has ever made..

Till you do it is true..

That's what you said buddy.

[Vincent65]

[Krypt0n1te]

Winning bid:US $21,201.00

[Pete17]

Glad to see the price took into account the dodgy paperwork.


Sent from my iPhone.