Spider dials

[lightingball2]

Can someone explain these to me? What causes the dials to do this. I think they look cool but do they hurt the value is the watch? Can anyone post pics of their spider dials......


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[037]

The paint cracks on the brass dial base. That's it. Technically they're damaged and should be replaced. For some reason certain collectors pay more for damaged dials and hands.

I'm all for patina but personally avoid spider dials.

[mimeocase]

This is mine


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[springer]

Cracking was found on the glossy dials during the mid to late 1980s and can be found on the GMTs, Submariners and other models as well. My guess is that the paint was applied too thick or there was some type of unwarranted reaction with the solvents/paints used in the mix. Below are photos of a couple cracked "spider" dials - a GMT II 16760 and a GMT 16750.

[cpefy3]

Personally, I like Spider dials.

[NoCokeNoHope]

Imho, spider dial is not very wearable. The cracked lacquer paint may flakes off from the dial and gets very messy.


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[GeorgeK]

Originally Posted by NoCokeNoHope

Imho, spider dial is not very wearable. The cracked lacquer paint may flakes off from the dial and gets very messy.


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Can you show me one instance of this happening on a non dropped/damaged watch?

[HK_Expat]

Originally Posted by 037

The paint cracks on the brass dial base. That's it. Technically they're damaged and should be replaced. For some reason certain collectors pay more for damaged dials and hands.

I'm all for patina but personally avoid spider dials.

+1 I wont pay a premium for a defect

[Sherbie]

I,ve just picked up a spider dial on a 16750 and for 90% of the time the dial looks like a normal pristine gloss dial

Only now and then do you catch a glimps of the spider - Its like having two dials in one

The dial is a very early gloss no date dial 8.5 mln, so completely original to this 1984 warch - i can find no evidence that the spider is degrading al all

Cheers, paul

[Gina Marie]

personally i dig them......very cool feature. 10 years ago they said the same thing about brown dials....

[05carbondrz]

Yuck,Another made up name for a damaged Dial.

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by 05carbondrz

Yuck,Another made up name for a damaged Dial.

Yup

[DLRIDES]

Originally Posted by cpefy3

Personally, I like Spider dials.

Originally Posted by Gina Marie

personally i dig them......very cool feature. 10 years ago they said the same thing about brown dials....

I really like them !

See no difference between cracking, so called “tropical”, and numerous other anomalies.

[037]

To expand on my post above, it's perfectly fine if you like spider dials as long as you're aware that it's damage and not a feature -- although I suppose the resulting damage could be considered a feature. I prefer matte dials so the desire for spiders escapes me personally. A spider should be priced less than the equivalent gloss dial in perfect condition but this isn't always the case. Paying more for a dial that I know is damaged is where I draw the line.

Tropical dials in comparison can be from natural aging, tarnishing or moisture damage. The first two are good, the last is bad. It depends on the original dial. Some tropical results are perfectly acceptable and others are damaged and being passed off as desirable.

At the end of the day, buy what you like. That's what makes vintage fun.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by GeorgeK

Can you show me one instance of this happening on a non dropped/damaged watch?

RSC will not do a service unless you have them replace the dial. The explanation they gave me was that part of the dial could come loose and damage the watch internals.

That is the explanation they gave me. Fortunately, they would replace the spider dial with a blue, so I did it.

[ianmcg]

Originally Posted by 037

To expand on my post above, it's perfectly fine if you like spider dials as long as you're aware that it's damage and not a feature -- although I suppose the resulting damage could be considered a feature. I prefer matte dials so the desire for spiders escapes me personally. A spider should be priced less than the equivalent gloss dial in perfect condition but this isn't always the case. Paying more for a dial that I know is damaged is where I draw the line.

Tropical dials in comparison can be from natural aging, tarnishing or moisture damage. The first two are good, the last is bad. It depends on the original dial. Some tropical results are perfectly acceptable and others are damaged and being passed off as desirable.

At the end of the day, buy what you like. That's what makes vintage fun.

Let's be clear spider dials are not damaged any more than proper brown tropical dials are. It's purely a consequence of age combined with defective paint just like brown dials are. Clearly more people find brown dials attractive than spider dials - I am one - but they have an authenticity of their era, equivalent to wrinkles on your granny.

Dials described as tropical when there are just water damaged is clearly nonsense and I doubt many people fall for it. Damaged dials are damaged dials full stop.

Here is a spider dial which it would be unwise to bin. There are no more than about of 5 of these inverted dials out there and all of them are spider dials as they come from the same batch so the spider bit is part of the story. Clearly they would probably be nicer without it but as somebody else said in the real world with normal light and not viewing it on 27inch monitor you can barely notice. No bits have fallen off in the last 34 years so we should be ok - it's the top laquer that cracks as I suspect it shrunk more than the paint underneath but it's still fixed on.

[fskywalker]

Don’t like them


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[GeorgeK]

Originally Posted by Frosty

RSC will not do a service unless you have them replace the dial. The explanation they gave me was that part of the dial could come loose and damage the watch internals.

That is the explanation they gave me. Fortunately, they would replace the spider dial with a blue, so I did it.

Again, Have you (or has anyone) seen a flake off a spider dial? Quoting RSC on this is like quoting Stalin on Democracy.

[05carbondrz]

The People who bought into the Spider Dials love them,That is their choice.With how extremely picky Most vintage buyers are I think it’s best to stay away from them.

[037]

Originally Posted by ianmcg

Let's be clear spider dials are not damaged any more than proper brown tropical dials are.

In that case let's be extra clear that everything is damage; faded inserts, yellowed tritium, spider dials, tropical anything, dings/dents/scratches... everything. It's the level of acceptability that makes the difference. You just happened to find one example of a spider dial that no collector would discard. However, the average spider dial remains polarized in acceptability overall. Fringe examples don't illustrate the majority of cases.

But, that's also why I said, "at the end of the day, buy what you like. That's what makes vintage fun." My post wasn't to change your mind. I was only to clarify my own opinion.

And, I still say that spider dials are damaged regardless of the value one might put on them. Some agree, others don't. That's perfectly fine.

Cheers.

[Sherbie]

Agree with all of the above

However, I, for one, would rather see a spider dial on a early serial non date gloss dial, than a service matte dial on a later serial 16750 (and lets be clear - a later serial SHOULD have a gloss dial in it)

But thats just me - i prefer my watches to be completely original

As mentioned above - i have a completely unmolested 16750 - its got an early serial spider gloss no date dial, slightly corroded hands, all lume plots and all hands are a lovely cream colour, hands are slightly lighter ( often the case on these), correct open 6 and 9 date wheel, all dates line up completely (on the watch, on the bracelet, dates on booklets, certificate - everything), and the case hasn’t been polished at all - yes its got wear and scuff marks, but i can still see the original bevels on all four lugs, and the chamfers on the crown guards

Now Why would i want to change the dial on this?

It would ruin it

Not all Collectors will buy spider dials - i totally get that

But i think more and more collectors are getting turned on by totally unmolested examples

As we saw on another thread, some of us are getting really worried and concerned about the authenticity and the sheer number of perfectly matching hands and lume plots on 1675s coming onto the market lately

Now thats something to get worked up about

Cheers, paul



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[ianmcg]

[QUOTE=037;8691490]In that case let's be extra clear that everything is damage; faded inserts, yellowed tritium, spider dials, tropical anything, dings/dents/scratches... everything. It's the level of acceptability that makes the difference. {/QUOTE]

Most people don't regard yellow tritium or faded inserts or indeed brown dials as damaged. All I said was that spider dials are the same ie. all of the damage was inflicted by time rather than by water or with a hammer. There is a difference. Given that we are talking about vintage watches the whole concept of vintage is about the passage of time.

We remain in agreement that you either like it or you don't but a spider dial is not in the same category as a water damaged dial and has more in common with a brown dial, which is all I said.



Ian

[037]

Originally Posted by ianmcg

We remain in agreement that you either like it or you don't but a spider dial is not in the same category as a water damaged dial and has more in common with a brown dial, which is all I said.

Yup, I agree with that. Apologies if what I said above sounded like I was categorizing water damage with the rest. I wasn't. My point there was that some vintage sellers are passing water damage off as "tropical," which is a complete mistake. But, "tropical" dials are caused by age, tarnishing or water damage with the first two being acceptable and the latter not -- as least not to those who know better.

[MILGAUSS88]

Originally Posted by lightingball2

Can someone explain these to me? What causes the dials to do this.

Being familiar with other items that have paint over metal, I would speculate that the cracking is caused by rapid or significant changes in temperature.

I have seen a lithographed tin that had complete mint paint on it (with no cracking) when it left the midwest in sub zero temperatures, when it arrived in California and the 70-80 degree weather it had about 30% of the paint still on it.
There was no explanation for the paint loss, other than the change in temperature. Other tin litho items did not have the same fate, so apparently the different properties of paint do matter.

I would imagine the same thing could happen when wearing the watch in the cold and bringing it inside.

[Vincent65]

They look like someone trod on them.

[BlakeA]

Oil paintings that are centuries old hanging in museums exhibit similar cracking. Part of the charm for some I suppose.

[Chunky]

Originally Posted by xyza0722

+1 i wont pay a premium for a defect

+2

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by GeorgeK

Again, Have you (or has anyone) seen a flake off a spider dial? Quoting RSC on this is like quoting Stalin on Democracy.

I guess just like Stalin, you do not want any information you do not agree with.

[GeorgeK]

Originally Posted by Frosty

I guess just like Stalin, you do not want any information you do not agree with.

Not at all. It is nothing more than the Sasquatch. TONS of people claim they flake off, yet no one can provide solid data.

I'll gladly and openly agree that they flake off, when provided with solid pictorial proof.

And in the meantime, I'll let people throw their dials in the oven for that natural tropical look...

[Vlad]

spider dials are required for specific models produced during specific years. Just like a 'floating' daytona dial is correct only for a particular serial number range. As such, liking spider dial or not liking spider dial is completely irrelevant. If someone wants an original watch, be prepared extra for the period correct dial (in this case spider).