RM and AP...

[wdin]

Originally Posted by texex91

Well, 'outsourcing' is a relative term--I consider Papi a hired gun (basically a modern day da Vinci). Even larger companies (AP) come to him to design some of the most complex watches, as only he can do it, and has the testing/materials/expertise to do such crazy stuff. If it comes from Papi it's the creme de la creme of watches--period.

Great questions BTW.

If we call it "collaboration", then it would be made known to the vast majority, no? Examples (a bad one if im honest) GP-Ferrari or Panerai-Ferrari.
Brands of both parties are encased on the dial or made known on the caseback or some sort.

But the new Nadal, if you have not came up here and shared, I certainly would have thought it was RM 100% from conception to birth (sure most TRF-ers would have known better than I do as I'm NEW here).
When in actual fact, it was all APRP and Mr Papi, was the driving force and catalyst that made it happen.

So the term you used (above) or "commissioned" could probably be quite accurate in describing this New Nadal watch since/though APRP was not (to me) credited by RM explicitly? (or again, I didn't do enough research to have missed the part where RM credited APRP for this outstanding piece).

If that was the case you, Paul, have cleared that up for me (and maybe a few TRF-ers) and enlightened us on the merits of APRP.

Again, thank you!



P.S. were you one of those lucky owners of any iterations of the nadal? I've adored it since the first one came out.

[texex91]

Originally Posted by wdin

If we call it "collaboration", then it would be made known to the vast majority, no? Examples (a bad one if im honest) GP-Ferrari or Panerai-Ferrari.
Brands of both parties are encased on the dial or made known on the caseback or some sort.

But the new Nadal, if you have not came up here and shared, I certainly would have thought it was RM 100% from conception to birth (sure most TRF-ers would have known better than I do as I'm NEW here).
When in actual fact, it was all APRP and Mr Papi, was the driving force and catalyst that made it happen.

So the term you used (above) or "commissioned" could probably be quite accurate in describing this New Nadal watch since/though APRP was not (to me) credited by RM explicitly? (or again, I didn't do enough research to have missed the part where RM credited APRP for this outstanding piece).

If that was the case you, Paul, have cleared that up for me (and maybe a few TRF-ers) and enlightened us on the merits of APRP.

Again, thank you!



P.S. were you one of those lucky owners or any iterations of the nadal? I've adored it since the first one came out.

Let's be clear, RM had total control of the project and ability to say yes or no. They are EXTREMELY involved in a piece like the Nadal.

No Nadal...not my style. My cheap RM011 is my favorite...always so comfortable on my wrist (and no, not designed by PAPI lol)

[mspeed76]

so the schumi V2 uses a different kind of forged carbon than other forged carbon APs? don't quite understand...

Originally Posted by texex91

Good question--thank you. APRP is Audemars Piguet Renaud Papi, and they actually make the -02 Nadal for RM. They make several (VERY) high end pieces for RM (and other brands such as AP). For me Papi is the king of movements and king of watchmakers (especially once you meet him and understand his history and passion for perfection). They did the design, movements, testing and manufacture of the Nadal-02. Just one small example of how they pursue the best materials, they took 4 years, just to find the Forged Carbon supplier for the AP Schumi V2--4 years.

[texex91]

Originally Posted by mspeed76

so the schumi V2 uses a different kind of forged carbon than other forged carbon APs? don't quite understand...

Oh yes. As a matter of fact the FC used for the pieces inside the V2 watch costs about $3k for a 1" x 1" flat piece of it that will be machined to make movements. It actually comes from a U.S. military supplier (the one that took 4 years to find and get through all of the contracts) that has the highest concentration of FC ratio in the world. Same material is used in the stealth fighter--just bigger pieces and a hell of a lot more expensive The machine used to cut it has to be replaced annually because it's such hard material. Hence one more of many reasons why it's $250k.

[PJ S]

Originally Posted by PJ S

That said, Wyler Geneve was doing spring mounted movements in the Code R, way back in 2006-7 – demonstrating the effectiveness by dropping a watch from the Eiffel Tower, and having a car drive over it. It survived intact.

Correction – Wyler, the original company, did the Eiffel Tower drop, but that was back in 1956, and to show off the shock handling properties of his Incaflex balance wheel design.
A similar demonstration was performed by the in 1962, at the Seattle Tower in Washington.
The car demonstration was done on the Wyler Geneve watch, who'd resurrected the Wyler name, by the Taiwanese distributor.

[edo]

Here is one tiny part of RM Rake special edition issue that explains how much Mille is involved in the making process of his watches...

... "I had a big fight with Renaud & Papi when I received the first execution of RM 012. I was so angry that they had sandblasted everything. They didn't understand that with this type of structure you had to go to the extreme in terms of finishing, playing with polishing and angles. As I don't care about the cost, we had to go to the extreme. This makes it totally different from and industrial product."

I will share more parts from this magazine about RM and RP later...

[texex91]

Originally Posted by edo

Here is one tiny part of RM Rake special edition issue that explains how much Mille is involved in the making process of his watches...

... "I had a big fight with Renaud & Papi when I received the first execution of RM 012. I was so angry that they had sandblasted everything. They didn't understand that with this type of structure you had to go to the extreme in terms of finishing, playing with polishing and angles. As I don't care about the cost, we had to go to the extreme. This makes it totally different from and industrial product."

I will share more parts from this magazine about RM and RP later...

Papi shared the story of when they first started with RM, it was rough. It's like a marriage, after the honeymoon phase, you realize things can get a little scary. But that's what communication and patience is for--same with watchmakers.

But I can assure you there is a reason RM continues to exclusively use RP for their high end pieces (as seen in the -02 Nadal). No one in the industry has the creativity, ability to work with unique materials and think outside of the box like Papi.

[conkers]

I would strongly recommend the two massive RM books for anyone who is interested in some of the highest quality macro watch photography I have ever seen.

Alain Borer is the author of one, and the other is called Monographie 1. Both are stunning for any RM fan.

[edo]

Originally Posted by texex91

Papi shared the story of when they first started with RM, it was rough. It's like a marriage, after the honeymoon phase, you realize things can get a little scary. But that's what communication and patience is for--same with watchmakers.

But I can assure you there is a reason RM continues to exclusively use RP for their high end pieces (as seen in the -02 Nadal). No one in the industry has the creativity, ability to work with unique materials and think outside of the box like Papi.

There is the story of first year... or should I say two :)... about RM 001...

"I didn't propose my product and start making compromises to bring it in on budget. I developed it and said "It cost what it costs" When all of this was finished I tabulated what the price should be, and then I realised that I was actually totally outside of the market - more than double of any existing tourbillon"

"At this time the prices of tourbillons were falling. Franck Muller cost below CHF100.000, Breguet and Blancpain were about CHF60.000, and so on. So I sad to myself "Well, we will see I was sure I would have clients, but I didn't know how many"

"i was due to deliver first watches in 2000 and there was an issue with the torque indicator. Fabrice Deschanel, whose company Ranaud and Papi was making my movements, told me that there would be a huge number of returns if the watches are sent in these condition. So I asked him how long the delay would be. he told me it would be one additional year. I told him, no problem. So, I totally postponed the watch. I had the luxury of saying quality first, because for new, ambitious brand, a technical failure would have been disastrous."

[texex91]

Love reminising about quotes from 15 years ago.

Once you meet Papi you get an appreciation for a real perfectionist. Time and money mean nothing--building the BEST watch/movement with the best materials does. I love it.

Hence, why RM demands APRP makes their key pieces to this day.

[conkers]

He stunned Marcus Margolies to silence when he first showed him the prototype RM001, and for those of you who know Marcus, he is never silent!

[texex91]

Originally Posted by conkers

He stunned Marcus Margolies to silence when he first showed him the prototype RM001, and for those of you who know Marcus, he is never silent!

[grnman]

Sounds like and enabling book to me.

[Chrispare]

Wow !
Great post !
I learnt a lot
Thanks a lot

[h999r]

My RM and AP :)

[conkers]

Original Le Mans 11 is definitely one of the best. If you ever want to sell, pls drop me a line!

[Jakx]

Ok, a little geography observation/question here. As you all know the industry is all located in the Jura mountain range of Switzerland with the ark beginning in Genève and (with a bit of stretch) ending in Basel. Within the Jura, there are several cantons (states). It is interesting that APRP is in Le Locle (Neuchâtel canton) and not in La Vallée de Joux (Vaud canton) where AP is. This makes sense in light Mr. Papi's roots in La Chaux-de-Fonds. But still, usually l'haute horlogerie Neuchâteloise (Le Locle, Côtes aux Fées, Fleurier and the big one La Chaux-de-Fonds) doesn't necessarily mix with l'horlogerie Vaudoise (Vallée de Joux). These cultural borders are breaking down I guess.