Gronefeld vs Voutilainen

[lapince]

Originally Posted by Hollister

I'm sceptical. What horological innovations has he pioneered? How is he advancing horology? He's good, but he's not great.

As for easy servicing, what exactly does that mean? Which movements are especially hard to service, aside from Patek Philippe?

As far as I know neither has Dufour or Roger Smith, but they are masters at their art, and considered the best at very small production watchmaking, so by that I didn't mean genius, would have used the term has he invented many patents, they keep their production low, even though Kari has participated in many projects with other renowned watchmakers.
Why I think he is a God in watchmaking is that IMHO he makes true unique pieces of Art, where Roger Smith is basically a continuation of George Daniels, and Dufour is Dufour and is widely considered the God of independent watch making, of course he works alone which is quite remarkable. I really http://www.voutilainen.ch/the-watches/#* don't love the designs from either of these. Check this page on his website and click on the models to see movement and case backs, they are amazingly artistic, even working with japanese master lackers. So for me he is a God in the sense that he makes incredibly unique and amazingly artistic pieces, front and back, he is a great watchmaker and artist. But again I just said this was my opinion, I spent hours looking at his watches page, and find many models quite amazing.

About the movements easy to repair or sercice, yes they are, he especially makes it that way for his clients not to have problems later on. The Gronefeld movements are amazing but seem quite complicated same for Journe if I am not mistaken, fine when the company is working, problematic to find a watchmaker with the skills to do it once the company is gone

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by Hollister

I'm sceptical. What horological innovations has he pioneered? How is he advancing horology? He's good, but he's not great.

As for easy servicing, what exactly does that mean? Which movements are especially hard to service, aside from Patek Philippe?

I think we seeing continual improvements in watchmaking now a days nothing earth shattering perhaps since Daniels! Have a tourbillon ...damn ok just add a few more!! Soon we will have 6 tourbillon in a watch!!! I think all modern watch makers spend time refining the escapement and that's where the differences come through. KV has a version of a double escapement he refined and I think FPJ did the same...you can't even open the caseback of an FPJ as they use a proprietary screw system!! i have both so not biased

[KarlS]

I wanted to end my story / thread but think I will add a bit more just for context. As alluded by Dimitri and Russell the continuation of Phase 1 is that I have another dial being made. When I was uncertain about colours, guilloche and enamelling and was stuck between the two the easiest decision wasn't which one but oh bugger....let's get both!! So thus is the level of customization you can get with a KV... so I have two dials, different colours and different finishes. When blue becomes "so last year" the watch is couriered to KV who kindly changes dial and returns it in 10 days...it's these small things that make a difference


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[lapince]

Yes the proprietary screw system on Journes is made for easy servicing where any good watchmaker works I find Journes amazing though have not found yet one which suits me, but that's basically the anti thesis of easy servicing. What makes Kari in my eyes so interesting is that he is basically open to anything, except for the case with his signature lugs, and the hands, can't think of another one who does that, except going for a one off, with specially desgned movement for that particular watch, can imagine the price, where Kari takes his existing movements and goes from there, though you can also order a watch with a unique movement from him as well. And considering that level of customization he is fairly good value for what he delivers.

[lapince]

Originally Posted by watchucallit

The base model is 45K Euros, Depending on the dial add $7500 to 12,500 Euros. This is for steel. Red gold is 5K and White gold 7K in addition
Wait time is 6 to 7 months and they require a 30% deposit.

Would be interesting to see what they consider base model, and see a dial where you need to add 7500 and one where you need to add 12.500. I love the one you posted, any idea what the price would be for that dial?

Anyways I think it's great you are probably getting the Gronefeld, they look amazing, and there will already soon be a second Voutilainen on here, getting another amazing and little known independent on here is great, and it gives ideas to other members for doing the same thing, which is great for the art. Do you know if they allow customization of the movement like Kari?

Hope you will make a thread about the ongoing process as Karl and I did, will be very interesting, will love to see what dial you choose, from the ones I saw the nicest are the one posted and the grey and blue

[watchucallit]

Which Gronefeld movement are you speaking about. The Hertz 1? In terms of trying them on.. how the heck to do that. Are there any KV and Gronefeld dealers in the same USA location, and on top of that -- most wont have stock.

Originally Posted by KarlS

No wrong choice and I love the Gonefeld movement. There is another Gronefeld I would choose over this. KV does their dials as he does for over 14 other brands. The KV lugs look odd with no strap but the first thing the guys at PP and AP commented on were hiw fantastic the lugs are!! KV allows you more of a bespoke experience (a note is that his Watch Only piece is number 199 after 7 years).

The Gronefeld brothers studied at WOSTEP the same place KV taught as Head of Complications.

This is also KV base movement and thus simple in look and design. You will note some things are oversized and the intention is to give longevity to parts that don't need replacement every 8 years (service interlude) and also that any competent watch maker will be able to service in the future. No ego here!!! Try them both on and the one that sings to you is the one to get! As I mentioned if you ok with catalogue shopping then def Gronefeld if u want a part of the artistic direction well then it's KV.

[watchucallit]

If I move forward will surely write a thread. I think mine will be 57500 Euros. Did you have to select the exact dial design at the time of the deposit. I asked if i could secure a spot in line with the deposit and wait a short time before picking up the final design.

Originally Posted by lapince

Would be interesting to see what they consider base model, and see a dial where you need to add 7500 and one where you need to add 12.500. I love the one you posted, any idea what the price would be for that dial?

Anyways I think it's great you are probably getting the Gronefeld, they look amazing, and there will already soon be a second Voutilainen on here, getting another amazing and little known independent on here is great, and it gives ideas to other members for doing the same thing, which is great for the art. Do you know if they allow customization of the movement like Kari?

Hope you will make a thread about the ongoing process as Karl and I did, will be very interesting, will love to see what dial you choose, from the ones I saw the nicest are the one posted and the grey and blue

[lapince]

Ok I understand the base dial is the one on the 1941 remontoire, and the more expensive ones are from the Bespoke series....

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by watchucallit

If I move forward will surely write a thread. I think mine will be 57500 Euros. Did you have to select the exact dial design at the time of the deposit. I asked if i could secure a spot in line with the deposit and wait a short time before picking up the final design.

Good we need some variety...I have no doubt you can decide the dial choice at the end as I am sure they actually have a stack of them in a drawer and pop them in as and when the watch is assembled! Manfredi are the USA agents for KV but not sure about Gronefeld. I had the same dilema and this is one of the reasons I didnt go L&H or UJ but went to see Kari in Motiers to try the watches on. I didnt want to spend bucks on a watch that may look great but fit rubbish on the wrist...

[lapince]

Originally Posted by watchucallit

If I move forward will surely write a thread. I think mine will be 57500 Euros. Did you have to select the exact dial design at the time of the deposit. I asked if i could secure a spot in line with the deposit and wait a short time before picking up the final design.

No you can choose your dial when you want, not especially at time of deposit, and you can change things even if you wanted something else, you need to have a good communication with the maker. I basically chose an existing dial model which I love, so not much creativity there, unlike Karl who got an amazing result, though added full numerals and not just 3-9-12. The creativity on mine is more on the back side

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by watchucallit

If I move forward will surely write a thread. I think mine will be 57500 Euros. Did you have to select the exact dial design at the time of the deposit. I asked if i could secure a spot in line with the deposit and wait a short time before picking up the final design.

Good we need some variety...I have no doubt you can decide the dial choice at the end as I am sure they actually have a stack of them in a drawer and pop them in as and when the watch is assembled! Manfredi are the USA agents for KV but not sure about Gronefeld. I had the same dilema and this is one of the reasons I didnt go L&H or UJ but went to see Kari in Motiers to try the watches on. I dint want to spend bucks on awatch that may look great but look rubbish or fit rubbish on the wrist...

I do think that this "semi bespoke" or "Made 2 Measure" approach will be adopted by watchmakers in the future as a means to differentiate themselves. There is a balancing act between full bespoke (as in a suit) and Made 2 Measure and thus the latter I see developing with the likes of VC, Armin Strom and Gronefeld. I had hours of fun playing on the computer designing a watch with Vacheron and I think more people with go for this interactive option in the future.

We forget its not necessarily "watch making" but "watch assembly" now a days. Give a chap a bunch of screws and things and he builds it like a mecano set...

Bespoke means bespoke....you want SS from Kari or Ti...or mammoth tusk...he will do it...just pay!!

[KarlS]

http://www.watchtime.com/featured/ka...i-voutilainen/

[Hollister]

Originally Posted by lapince

As far as I know neither has Dufour or Roger Smith, but they are masters at their art, and considered the best at very small production watchmaking, so by that I didn't mean genius, would have used the term has he invented many patents, they keep their production low, even though Kari has participated in many projects with other renowned watchmakers.
Why I think he is a God in watchmaking is that IMHO he makes true unique pieces of Art, where Roger Smith is basically a continuation of George Daniels, and Dufour is Dufour and is widely considered the God of independent watch making, of course he works alone which is quite remarkable. I really http://www.voutilainen.ch/the-watches/#* don't love the designs from either of these. Check this page on his website and click on the models to see movement and case backs, they are amazingly artistic, even working with japanese master lackers. So for me he is a God in the sense that he makes incredibly unique and amazingly artistic pieces, front and back, he is a great watchmaker and artist. But again I just said this was my opinion, I spent hours looking at his watches page, and find many models quite amazing.

About the movements easy to repair or sercice, yes they are, he especially makes it that way for his clients not to have problems later on. The Gronefeld movements are amazing but seem quite complicated same for Journe if I am not mistaken, fine when the company is working, problematic to find a watchmaker with the skills to do it once the company is gone

I think any mechanical watch movement is going to be serviceable, whether the company which made them still exists, or not. Watches from the 18th century are still going.

Although I agree KV's watches are very pretty, innovation is doing world firsts.

[KarlS]

Yes Gronefeld does offer full guilloche options so you can choose what you want and I guess that must extend to choice of enamel colour! Find out and let us know. I like ruthenium finish (much like Arnaud is getting) and it's a modem looking watch. If you font care for guilloche the standard model is fantastic and I think EUR 42k....they only doing 188 so move fast although not sure if yes 188 of each metal. Keep us posted


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[texex91]

Originally Posted by KarlS

I almost sent mine back when I saw this!!!


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Kari is very wise in how he spends your money

[SearChart]

I have a sweet spot for Grönefeld, I know the brothers personally and have visited their atelier. They get their parts from Switzerland and then hand finish them on Lange level.

I would definitely pick them over KV.

[Hollister]

Originally Posted by KarlS

I think we seeing continual improvements in watchmaking now a days nothing earth shattering perhaps since Daniels! Have a tourbillon ...damn ok just add a few more!! Soon we will have 6 tourbillon in a watch!!! I think all modern watch makers spend time refining the escapement and that's where the differences come through. KV has a version of a double escapement he refined and I think FPJ did the same...you can't even open the caseback of an FPJ as they use a proprietary screw system!! i have both so not biased

I'm not sure this is right. For instance, the FPJ QP is, I believe, the first and only PC with both instantaneous and synchronous day, date and month change. Numerous other innovations from FPJ over the years.

As for the proprietary screw system, any decent watchmaker can make a tool to open the case.

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by Hollister

I'm not sure this is right. For instance, the FPJ QP is, I believe, the first and only PC with both instantaneous and synchronous day, date and month change. Numerous other innovations from FPJ over the years.



As for the proprietary screw system, any decent watchmaker can make a tool to open the case.

Not sure on PC as certainly the new 5320 does and doubt Patek invented that this year. I did find this tho.

1991
Instant date change (674913)

A timepiece mechanism containing an instant date and day change device.

In numerous date mechanisms the change of date and/or day is progressive and lasts several hours, which brings about an inelegant display for the timepiece user.

So-called existing instant mechanisms tend to use a lot of energy. More importantly, many of them do not permit the manual date correction feature, as well as time setting, during certain times when the calendar mechanism is functioning. Another patent-bearing mechanism suffers from the fact that it has been made large in order to house its instant date change device, rendering it difficult to set.

Patek Philippe’s patented mechanism succeeds in overcoming the inconvenient features of other so-called instant date change timepieces.


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[KarlS]

And This is an extract from a three watch review but we don't want to turn this to turn into another PP / FPJ thread and let's focus on what the OP is asking. Cheers

But, that comes with some problems. The unique architecture is going to make this a tough movement to have serviced down the road. I’m obviously not speaking from first-hand experience here, but when the CB needs work, I would imagine that it will need to go to F.P. Journe and not a typical watchmaker. That concealed gear train alone would likely prove confusing. Additionally, Journe uses proprietary screwheads on the caseback, again meaning this will have to go home for service.


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[PJ S]

Originally Posted by lapince

KV: Kari is already a God in horology, his movements are made to be easily serviced or repaired should he disappear, almost the whole watch is hand made (not sure about the hand made level of Gronefeld), he declares will never make more than 50 watches per year, the watch market is tanking, he won't as he has a strong reputation in this very niche sector, is ultra open for customization (not sure about the brothers, guilloche sure you can choose, rest not sure. He doesn't make perfectly made watches, he makes pieces of art, uses only gold or platinum. …

Are you sure?
http://www.watchprosite.com/page-wf....open_bLoB_s-0/

Originally Posted by lapince

Gronefeld: use steel which is IMO strange for such type watches, love the dial and designs, same for the movements, but if they disappear won't be so easy to repair as Kari's, beautiful watches but don't feel the unique art piece as much as with Kari's, lugs are more modern, had a hard time with Kari's lugs at the start, but got used to it and so original, Gronefeld lugs are the same type as found on hundreds of watches, the hole in the dial is cool, but would I not be bored after some time? ...

Are you bored of the seconds hands on your watches?

Originally Posted by Hollister

I'm sceptical. What horological innovations has he pioneered? How is he advancing horology? He's good, but he's not great.

Great takes many forms, not just devising a new escapement (George Daniels) or making a moonphase accurate to 2 million years (Andreas Strehler).
But even the greats can get it wrong on occasion…

http://www.watchprosite.com/page-wf....open_bLoB_s-0/

[SearChart]

Originally Posted by PJ S

Are you sure?
http://www.watchprosite.com/page-wf....open_bLoB_s-0/

What are you trying to say?

[KarlS]

Duplicate. PJ S isn't a fan of KV or PP

[edo]

That pic of Kari makes it even bigger in my eyes. A master watchmaker who truly enjoys a GTG with watch enthusiasts...

[PJ S]

Originally Posted by SearChart

What are you trying to say?

Read my comment contained therein – it should be self explanatory in relation to Arnaud’s doe-eyed view of His Most High Excellency, Sir Kari of Voutilainen.

And somewhat back on topic…

http://www.watchprosite.com/page-wf....open_bLoB_s-0/
http://www.watchprosite.com/page-wf....open_bLoB_s-0/
http://www.watchprosite.com/page-wf....open_bLoB_s-0/

[PJ S]

Originally Posted by KarlS

Duplicate. PJ S isn't a fan of KV or PP

Fanatical? No, but greatly appreciative of what Kari has to offer.
Not getting the “ISO” functionality is shared amongst other Purists too, so it’s not just me that sees no benefit from the feature – even though it was originally created at the request of a customer a couple of years ago.
Unappealing lug design – so as lovely as his dials most certainly are, and the rear-end ain’t bad either, it completely dampens any initial interest.

For me, all watches stand on their own merits of design, aesthetics, and functionality, irrespective of the name on the dial.

[fmc000]

This one, hands down.

[Hollister]

Originally Posted by KarlS

Not sure on PC as certainly the new 5320 does and doubt Patek invented that this year. I did find this tho.

1991
Instant date change (674913)

A timepiece mechanism containing an instant date and day change device.

In numerous date mechanisms the change of date and/or day is progressive and lasts several hours, which brings about an inelegant display for the timepiece user.

So-called existing instant mechanisms tend to use a lot of energy. More importantly, many of them do not permit the manual date correction feature, as well as time setting, during certain times when the calendar mechanism is functioning. Another patent-bearing mechanism suffers from the fact that it has been made large in order to house its instant date change device, rendering it difficult to set.

Patek Philippe’s patented mechanism succeeds in overcoming the inconvenient features of other so-called instant date change timepieces.

I think the FPJ QP is the only one where all three change at the exact same time. He bought a high-speed video camera to make sure. I don't think the PP does that, but you can correct me if I'm wrong.

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/fp...k-on-the-wrist

[lapince]

Originally Posted by PJ S

Are you sure?
http://www.watchprosite.com/page-wf....open_bLoB_s-0/



Are you bored of the seconds hands on your watches?




Great takes many forms, not just devising a new escapement (George Daniels) or making a moonphase accurate to 2 million years (Andreas Strehler).
But even the greats can get it wrong on occasion…

http://www.watchprosite.com/page-wf....open_bLoB_s-0/

1- I find it great that asca watch lover he takes a pic of certainly very interesting watches on the table, like him even more

2- not a huge fan of most, not all, dials with some sort of hole, but again I said their watches look amazing, no hater here my friend

Originally Posted by edo

That pic of Kari makes it even bigger in my eyes. A master watchmaker who truly enjoys a GTG with watch enthusiasts...

This

Originally Posted by PJ S

Read my comment contained therein – it should be self explanatory in relation to Arnaud’s doe-eyed view of His Most High Excellency, Sir Kari of Voutilainen.

And somewhat back on topic…

http://www.watchprosite.com/page-wf....open_bLoB_s-0/
http://www.watchprosite.com/page-wf....open_bLoB_s-0/
http://www.watchprosite.com/page-wf....open_bLoB_s-0/

There are many excellent watchmakers, why do I have a preference for Kari? Because of his casebacks, look at the Zodiac, MP7, and others, other watchmakers are great, but I find Dufour and Smith boring, would love a GF, but too big and way out of my price range. So yes for me, it is the best in what I like, maybe for many having an engraved case back is stupid, but I love that part, and love the huge customization he offers, is there another one who has the same,characteristics? Maybe but I don't know about him, most want their design and offer minimal customization, he offers almost complete customization of existing models, I find that great. I agree that I had to take time to get used to his lugs, and did not'like them very much at first, but after some time I find them pleasing, it gives the case a certain charm.

Anyways this is not a "who is the best watchmaker" thread, it's about the OP choosing between them, clearly he chose Gronefeld, which is a great choice, let's focus on that and the possibilities he has.

I love the full blue dial at the start of the thread, but the grey and blue enamel is awesome, I would just try to choose the colors the OP prefers.

You said yours would probably be 47.5k, so I suppose you are choosing in SS with the first dial, pretty sure it will be amazing if I am right

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by Hollister

I think the FPJ QP is the only one where all three change at the exact same time. He bought a high-speed video camera to make sure. I don't think the PP does that, but you can correct me if I'm wrong.

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/fp...k-on-the-wrist

We need PJ S.....I know the 5320 definately does and you remember the QP was my shortlist for the very fact that it had instant change and uncluttered dial

[watchucallit]

I am learning a lot from this thread so I appreciate the comments. I did get confirmation that once I place the order I would have about 2 months to figure out the specific dial parameters. Does anyone have any knowledge about the Remontoire movement? Does it really improve accuracy or is it like a tourbillon -- more of a theoretical design to improve accuracy or precision.