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watchucallit · 24 July 2017, 04:18 AM

With all the talk by Karl and Arnaud about Voutilainen and my previous interests earlier on--- I was really considering one of his pieces for myself. I also have had interest in Gronefeld and admired their work as well. I realize there is a past history between the two. So now I have become more serious about one or the other.. and please do not say both.. If i were to go with Vouitlainen I would likely go for a variant of the Vingt 8 or Vingt 8-power reserve. I love the piece Karl purchased and has a separate thread. With Gronefeld would go with Bespoke 1941 Remontoire.
I am including some stock photos but let me summarize what I prefer for each

Gronefeld
1. Prefer the lug design
2. Remontoire motor wheel on the front is different and cool
3. More interesting and attractive movement
4. Can get in steel my preferred metal
5. Limited edition n=188 movements produced

Voutilainen
1. More dial design choices
2. Possible to get PR indicator
3. Prefer numerals on the dial
4. Simpler movement and likely easier to repair if needed (Arnaud brought up)

AltiTudor · 24 July 2017, 04:52 AM

Wow — hard to go wrong with either. That said, I love the Groenfeld watches. I think the dials are spot on and the movement side is simply amazing. The depth in the movement is unparalleled. I'd go Groenfeld.

watchucallit · 24 July 2017, 05:07 AM

I am leaning that way

Quote:

Originally Posted by AltiTudor

Wow — hard to go wrong with either. That said, I love the Groenfeld watches. I think the dials are spot on and the movement side is simply amazing. The depth in the movement is unparalleled. I'd go Groenfeld.

texex91 · 24 July 2017, 05:10 AM

Both nice, but much prefer Groenfeld if I were to go the one off route. I like the Fish Scale Guillouché dial.

I just cannot get beyond the lugs on Vout.

texasmade · 24 July 2017, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texex91

Both nice, but much prefer Groenfeld if I were to go the one off route. I like the Fish Scale Guillouché dial.

I just cannot get beyond the lugs on Vout.

Agreed. The Vout lugs are just too out there for my personal preference.

HL65 · 24 July 2017, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texex91

Both nice, but much prefer Groenfeld if I were to go the one off route. I like the Fish Scale Guillouché dial.

I just cannot get beyond the lugs on Vout.

Agree

Hollister · 24 July 2017, 05:45 AM

+1 for Groenfeld.

lapince · 24 July 2017, 05:58 AM

KV: Kari is already a God in horology, his movements are made to be easily serviced or repaired should he disappear, almost the whole watch is hand made (not sure about the hand made level of Gronefeld), he declares will never make more than 50 watches per year, the watch market is tanking, he won't as he has a strong reputation in this very niche sector, is ultra open for customization (not sure about the brothers, guilloche sure you can choose, rest not sure. He doesn't make perfectly made watches, he makes pieces of art, uses only gold or platinum. I would not put that kind of money into any independent, Kari is a rising star and expect it to continue. With him youbdesign the watch totally like you want, except if you get without changes to the design, but takes all the fun away... as far as I saw the prices of his watches at auctions didn't loose too much if to consider the prices of those years.

Gronefeld: use steel which is IMO strange for such type watches, love the dial and designs, same for the movements, but if they disappear won't be so easy to repair as Kari's, beautiful watches but don't feel the unique art piece as much as with Kari's, lugs are more modern, had a hard time with Kari's lugs at the start, but got used to it and so original, Gronefeld lugs are the same type as found on hundreds of watches, the hole in the dial is cool, but would I not be bored after some time? There are 4 Cronefeld on sale on chrono24, never saw one from Kari.

Both are awesome, by the way what are Gronefeld prices? Kari's 28 is 75k in gold, 82k in platinum, that's without any kind of customization, I paid slightly more for mine, Gronefeld are amazing, but not the art pieces Kari's are, look on his website at all the watches he made, and their officers engraved case backs, just amazing. But any one would be an amazing addition to any collection

texex91 · 24 July 2017, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lapince

Kari is already a God in horology.

Kari is a rising star and expect it to continue.

So is he a 'rising star' or 'god'

lapince · 24 July 2017, 06:10 AM

Oh and I don't think the finition level is comparable, look at the big wheel on Kari's, I saw the woman doing that, takes a very long time, hen you see each piece of the movement you understand that the level of finishing is just amazing, Gronefeld finition seems great but not top notch like Kari. But their movement design is a pleasure to look at, Kari's is simpler and purposefully so.

edo · 24 July 2017, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lapince

Oh and I don't think the finition level is comparable, look at the big wheel on Kari's, I saw the woman doing that, takes a very long time, hen you see each piece of the movement you understand that the level of finishing is just amazing, Gronefeld finition seems great but not top notch like Kari. But their movement design is a pleasure to look at, Kari's is simpler and purposefully so.

Speaking of main topic I would probably add a Kari to myself due to level of customization Kari allows, and I really respect the guy as watchmaker...

On other side, don't be so sure about Gronefeld finition... in a two way cooperation with APRP they finish some movements for APRP and APRP make some movements parts exclusively from them - they are only manufacture that APRP supply with movements part as we know APRP make just whole movements...

lapince · 24 July 2017, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texex91

So is he a 'rising star' or 'god'

Both, you do know that in Olympus Gods had different levels, Zeus for many is Dufour, with Roger Smith behind and I would say Kari in third, just my personal opinion with no other reason than the way I feel, but not a big fan of the designs of the first too, and why I chose him? Because as far as I know he is the only one who from a usual model, 28 in our case, and make it totally the way you want it, without making you pay a fortune for it, to my knowledge he is the only one doing it to this level, Dufour makes made to order watches, but for how much???
Anyways I am biased as have chosen him after looking quite a bit, like Karl said not all will like his watches, but you are not buying such a watch to be the cool kid in the block on a watch forum, get a PP for that

lapince · 24 July 2017, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edo

Speaking of main topic I would probably add a Kari to myself due to level of customization Kari allows, and I really respect the guy as watchmaker...

On other side, don't be so sure about Gronefeld finition... in a two way cooperation with APRP they finish some movements for APRP and APRP make some movements parts exclusively from them - they are only manufacture that APRP supply with movements part as we know APRP make just whole movements...

Interesting, thanks, my remark was just based on a pic of their movement, saw Kari's movements in real, plus he did some very complicated ones, can't recommend enough going to the watches part of his site, shows all he did, one offs, LE's and current models. Some are amazing, the different case backs was what decided me to go for it

texex91 · 24 July 2017, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edo

On other side, don't be so sure about Gronefeld finition... in a two way cooperation with APRP they finish some movements for APRP and APRP make some movements parts exclusively from them - they are only manufacture that APRP supply with movements part as we know APRP make just whole movements...

Interesting, as I did not know of that relationship with APRP.

That seals my vote for Gronefeld

lapince · 24 July 2017, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AltiTudor

Wow — hard to go wrong with either. That said, I love the Groenfeld watches. I think the dials are spot on and the movement side is simply amazing. The depth in the movement is unparalleled. I'd go Groenfeld.

Kari makes their dials in his dial factory he purchased

lapince · 24 July 2017, 06:39 AM

Any prices for the Gronefeld?

edo · 24 July 2017, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texex91

Interesting, as I did not know of that relationship with APRP.

That seals my vote for Gronefeld

Yes, they worked for years with Renaud and Papi in Switzerland and after moving back to Netherlands they were at first outsource manufacture for Renaud and Papi before launching their own watch brand...

HL65 · 24 July 2017, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edo

Yes, they worked for years with Renaud and Papi in Switzerland and after moving back to Netherlands they were at first outsource manufacture for Renaud and Papi before launching their own watch brand...

Very interesting...Thanks for sharing that with us!

watchucallit · 24 July 2017, 07:07 AM

The base model is 45K Euros, Depending on the dial add $7500 to 12,500 Euros. This is for steel. Red gold is 5K and White gold 7K in addition
Wait time is 6 to 7 months and they require a 30% deposit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lapince

Any prices for the Gronefeld?

texex91 · 24 July 2017, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edo

Yes, they worked for years with Renaud and Papi in Switzerland and after moving back to Netherlands they were at first outsource manufacture for Renaud and Papi before launching their own watch brand...

Yet another Papi pupil. Giulio Papi is a true genius

. Amazing mind.

watchucallit · 24 July 2017, 07:12 AM

I was not aware of this.. Thanks important information. If the Gronefeld had a PR indicator.. would be perfect...

Quote:

Originally Posted by edo

Speaking of main topic I would probably add a Kari to myself due to level of customization Kari allows, and I really respect the guy as watchmaker...

On other side, don't be so sure about Gronefeld finition... in a two way cooperation with APRP they finish some movements for APRP and APRP make some movements parts exclusively from them - they are only manufacture that APRP supply with movements part as we know APRP make just whole movements...

lapince · 24 July 2017, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by watchucallit

The base model is 45K Euros, Depending on the dial add $7500 to 12,500 Euros. This is for steel. Red gold is 5K and White gold 7K in addition
Wait time is 6 to 7 months and they require a 30% deposit.

Ok so prices are a little lower than Kari's but nor so much. I would clearly choose gold as the premium is quite reasonable, even remarkable for such brands, but of course if you love the idea of having it in SS get what you love. For the dial love the one you posted, and the grey with blue enamel, but try to get something unique they haven't done before, love steel but on sport watches. Kari also wants 30%, I sent him 70 as was sure the euro would go down compared to the CHF, proposed 100, but he said no, so saved a few k...

Can't wait to see the result, will be amazing

AK797 · 24 July 2017, 08:43 AM

That Gronefeld movement is stunning, altho I slightly prefer the Vout dial.

locutus49 · 24 July 2017, 09:21 AM

I like the exhibition back of the Gronefeld (the movement finishing), but prefer the dial of the Vout. Can't go wrong with either, IMO.

Hollister · 24 July 2017, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lapince

KV: Kari is already a God in horology, his movements are made to be easily serviced

I'm sceptical. What horological innovations has he pioneered? How is he advancing horology? He's good, but he's not great.

As for easy servicing, what exactly does that mean? Which movements are especially hard to service, aside from Patek Philippe?

GB-man · 24 July 2017, 10:54 AM

I know they aren't the same at all but I'd rather have a Journe if I wanted something a little different in the dress category.

That said, the KV would be my pick between these two. I prefer the dial, hands and general aesthetic

watchucallit · 24 July 2017, 10:55 AM

I have a Journe CS already and I love it . but do not wear often because do not dress up often

Quote:

Originally Posted by GB-man

I know they aren't the same at all but I'd rather have a Journe if I wanted something a little different in the dress category.

That said, the KV would be my pick between these two. I prefer the dial, hands and general aesthetic

GB-man · 24 July 2017, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by watchucallit

I have a Journe CS already and I love it . but do not wear often because do not dress up often

Ah I see. What makes you think you'll wear this? Just curious

KarlS · 24 July 2017, 12:50 PM

No wrong choice and I love the Gonefeld movement. There is another Gronefeld I would choose over this. KV does their dials as he does for over 14 other brands. The KV lugs look odd with no strap but the first thing the guys at PP and AP commented on were hiw fantastic the lugs are!! KV allows you more of a bespoke experience (a note is that his Watch Only piece is number 199 after 7 years).

The Gronefeld brothers studied at WOSTEP the same place KV taught as Head of Complications.

This is also KV base movement and thus simple in look and design. You will note some things are oversized and the intention is to give longevity to parts that don't need replacement every 8 years (service interlude) and also that any competent watch maker will be able to service in the future. No ego here!!! Try them both on and the one that sings to you is the one to get! As I mentioned if you ok with catalogue shopping then def Gronefeld if u want a part of the artistic direction well then it's KV.

KarlS · 24 July 2017, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texex91

Interesting, as I did not know of that relationship with APRP.

That seals my vote for Gronefeld

I almost sent mine back when I saw this!!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

24 July 2017, 04:18 AM	#1
watchucallit "TRF" Member Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: San Fran Posts: 2,218	Gronefeld vs Voutilainen With all the talk by Karl and Arnaud about Voutilainen and my previous interests earlier on--- I was really considering one of his pieces for myself. I also have had interest in Gronefeld and admired their work as well. I realize there is a past history between the two. So now I have become more serious about one or the other.. and please do not say both.. If i were to go with Vouitlainen I would likely go for a variant of the Vingt 8 or Vingt 8-power reserve. I love the piece Karl purchased and has a separate thread. With Gronefeld would go with Bespoke 1941 Remontoire. I am including some stock photos but let me summarize what I prefer for each Gronefeld 1. Prefer the lug design 2. Remontoire motor wheel on the front is different and cool 3. More interesting and attractive movement 4. Can get in steel my preferred metal 5. Limited edition n=188 movements produced Voutilainen 1. More dial design choices 2. Possible to get PR indicator 3. Prefer numerals on the dial 4. Simpler movement and likely easier to repair if needed (Arnaud brought up) Attached Images

24 July 2017, 10:54 AM	#26
GB-man 2024 SubLV41 Pledge Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: USA Watch: addiction issues Posts: 37,355	I know they aren't the same at all but I'd rather have a Journe if I wanted something a little different in the dress category. That said, the KV would be my pick between these two. I prefer the dial, hands and general aesthetic __________________

24 July 2017, 04:52 AM	#2
AltiTudor "TRF" Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 55	Wow — hard to go wrong with either. That said, I love the Groenfeld watches. I think the dials are spot on and the movement side is simply amazing. The depth in the movement is unparalleled. I'd go Groenfeld.

24 July 2017, 05:10 AM	#4
texex91 "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: . Posts: 17,898	Both nice, but much prefer Groenfeld if I were to go the one off route. I like the Fish Scale Guillouché dial. I just cannot get beyond the lugs on Vout.

24 July 2017, 05:45 AM	#7
Hollister Banned Join Date: Apr 2016 Real Name: James Location: UK Watch: 114300 Posts: 1,750	+1 for Groenfeld.

24 July 2017, 05:58 AM	#8
lapince "TRF" Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Mars Watch: 5712 Posts: 11,509	KV: Kari is already a God in horology, his movements are made to be easily serviced or repaired should he disappear, almost the whole watch is hand made (not sure about the hand made level of Gronefeld), he declares will never make more than 50 watches per year, the watch market is tanking, he won't as he has a strong reputation in this very niche sector, is ultra open for customization (not sure about the brothers, guilloche sure you can choose, rest not sure. He doesn't make perfectly made watches, he makes pieces of art, uses only gold or platinum. I would not put that kind of money into any independent, Kari is a rising star and expect it to continue. With him youbdesign the watch totally like you want, except if you get without changes to the design, but takes all the fun away... as far as I saw the prices of his watches at auctions didn't loose too much if to consider the prices of those years. Gronefeld: use steel which is IMO strange for such type watches, love the dial and designs, same for the movements, but if they disappear won't be so easy to repair as Kari's, beautiful watches but don't feel the unique art piece as much as with Kari's, lugs are more modern, had a hard time with Kari's lugs at the start, but got used to it and so original, Gronefeld lugs are the same type as found on hundreds of watches, the hole in the dial is cool, but would I not be bored after some time? There are 4 Cronefeld on sale on chrono24, never saw one from Kari. Both are awesome, by the way what are Gronefeld prices? Kari's 28 is 75k in gold, 82k in platinum, that's without any kind of customization, I paid slightly more for mine, Gronefeld are amazing, but not the art pieces Kari's are, look on his website at all the watches he made, and their officers engraved case backs, just amazing. But any one would be an amazing addition to any collection

24 July 2017, 06:10 AM	#10
lapince "TRF" Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Mars Watch: 5712 Posts: 11,509	Oh and I don't think the finition level is comparable, look at the big wheel on Kari's, I saw the woman doing that, takes a very long time, hen you see each piece of the movement you understand that the level of finishing is just amazing, Gronefeld finition seems great but not top notch like Kari. But their movement design is a pleasure to look at, Kari's is simpler and purposefully so.

24 July 2017, 06:39 AM	#16
lapince "TRF" Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Mars Watch: 5712 Posts: 11,509	Any prices for the Gronefeld?

24 July 2017, 08:43 AM	#23
AK797 2024 Pledge Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Real Name: Neil Location: UK Watch: ing ships roll in Posts: 59,369	That Gronefeld movement is stunning, altho I slightly prefer the Vout dial.

24 July 2017, 09:21 AM	#24
locutus49 Banned Join Date: May 2014 Real Name: John Location: La Jolla, CA Watch: Platona Posts: 12,194	I like the exhibition back of the Gronefeld (the movement finishing), but prefer the dial of the Vout. Can't go wrong with either, IMO.

24 July 2017, 12:50 PM	#29
KarlS Banned Join Date: Nov 2015 Real Name: Karl Location: Kuwait Posts: 5,228	No wrong choice and I love the Gonefeld movement. There is another Gronefeld I would choose over this. KV does their dials as he does for over 14 other brands. The KV lugs look odd with no strap but the first thing the guys at PP and AP commented on were hiw fantastic the lugs are!! KV allows you more of a bespoke experience (a note is that his Watch Only piece is number 199 after 7 years). The Gronefeld brothers studied at WOSTEP the same place KV taught as Head of Complications. This is also KV base movement and thus simple in look and design. You will note some things are oversized and the intention is to give longevity to parts that don't need replacement every 8 years (service interlude) and also that any competent watch maker will be able to service in the future. No ego here!!! Try them both on and the one that sings to you is the one to get! As I mentioned if you ok with catalogue shopping then def Gronefeld if u want a part of the artistic direction well then it's KV.

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