No papers..... how much does it detract...?

[Billyboy80]

RF,

It it time to take the plunge with my first 'proper' Rolex, I have a Jaeger Reverso and a Tudor OysterDate.... but a SS Submariner is next for me.

I am keen to get one pre-owned due to waiting lists and also a bit cheaper, however have a question re papers etc... There is a local dealer in London who has SS Sub Date at a good price, boxed, but no papers, anchor etc... how much does this detract from the re-sale price?

Thanks in advance for all your help.

BB

[smallcandle]

Depends on the buyer, but I would suspect that the absence of papers will reduce a watch's value by $150 - $200. Personally, however, I won't seriously consider a pre-owned watch that doesn't have its original birth certificate. That's just me, though.

[R1@160@alltimes]

Originally Posted by smallcandle

Depends on the buyer, but I would suspect that the absence of papers will reduce a watch's value by $150 - $200. Personally, however, I won't seriously consider a pre-owned watch that doesn't have its original birth certificate. That's just me, though.

x2

But keep in mind, assuming that the watch is genuine, you will receive RSC service papers once you service it by Rolex. The service papers totally authenticate the watch.

[TimeToGo]

WELCOME TO THE FORUM!

You are chosing wisely, the classic! SUBMARINER...

Check with us when you have one in mind. Check on the service history, papers/boxes....etc. And as you will hear here, buy the BUYER (solid references)!

[Billyboy80]

Thanks all - great quick responses. It is a shop in Bond Street in London not an AD, but a pre-owned watch specialist with good references... going to have a look on Thursday, would prefer one with papers, but this is a 2008 with the Rolex embossed around the inner bezel (which I want) and a good proce £2,850, which isnt bad for UK!

[Playdrv4me]

Originally Posted by smallcandle

Depends on the buyer, but I would suspect that the absence of papers will reduce a watch's value by $150 - $200. Personally, however, I won't seriously consider a pre-owned watch that doesn't have its original birth certificate. That's just me, though.

Just wanted to throw in my vote for having papers. I sometimes get watches without them, but far and away I like having a complete set far more than a watch just with boxes.

I realize that the warranty is usually long expired by the time you purchase it, but much like having the original bill of sale or window sticker with a car, it's just something that adds provenance to the watch and the ownership experience.

[swissautopro]

Originally Posted by smallcandle

Depends on the buyer, but I would suspect that the absence of papers will reduce a watch's value by $150 - $200. Personally, however, I won't seriously consider a pre-owned watch that doesn't have its original birth certificate. That's just me, though.

Me, too. Boxes, etc. I can live without, but papers are very important to me.

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by R1@160@alltimes

x2

But keep in mind, assuming that the watch is genuine, you will receive RSC service papers once you service it by Rolex. The service papers totally authenticate the watch.

X2

[mactrack]

The money you save will merely be lost again if you ever come to resell plus it will be harder to get that sale.

[mcubed]

Originally Posted by Billyboy80

Thanks all - great quick responses. It is a shop in Bond Street in London not an AD, but a pre-owned watch specialist with good references... going to have a look on Thursday, would prefer one with papers, but this is a 2008 with the Rolex embossed around the inner bezel (which I want) and a good proce £2,850, which isnt bad for UK!

Buying from a shop, IMHO, is a different ballgame than buying from a private person. If they have good references, are well respected, and are experts, then I don't think papers are much of an issue. I have heard that some second hand sellers won't give you papers anyway, since they have someone else's name and info on them. I bought a pristine sub without papers from a local shop. It came with a year warranty and I have someone who will take care of problems and stand behind the sale. That is more valuable than an outdated warranty card

[esm]

is it the Watch Centre you are referring to?

[sambb]

papers are not a deal breaker for me... but the price is always a little lower... if you are going to keep the watch, then you may not need the papers..

[Tools]

Buying from a Dealer, the old expired warranty certificate is seldom ever with the watch unless it is a speciality shop...

Frequently sellers want an extra hundred bucks if it has it... I simply don't think that it's worth it on a modern reference.. It proves or shows nothing, and with the millions sold, it will not be like the few hundreds of complete packages on vintage watches...

[sea-dweller]

I would not buy a pre-owned watch without the papers/boxes.

[Billyboy80]

esm - yes it is the watch centre 74 Bond street - have you nay experience of them/advice?

[Cocobaci]

Papers are the records to the watches existence. If I dont have papers, I dont have the watch.

[Playdrv4me]

Originally Posted by Cocobaci

Papers are the records to the watches existence. If I dont have papers, I dont have the watch.

This is kind of how I feel.

Even though you CAN get paperwork from Rolex at the time of service, the warranty card/paper only happens once and never again, it's a nice thing to have.

[Esquire]

Originally Posted by Cocobaci

Papers are the records to the watches existence. If I dont have papers, I dont have the watch.

Agreed. I won't purchase an incomplete package. Period.

[Perdu]

I don't see a problem personally, you pop down the road to Rolex in St. James Square and have them authenticate the watch.Maybe they will give you papers. I know when they changed my bezel they gave me papers that effectively authenticated my watch. They may not be original papers but they prove the watch is a Rolex. Service papers are just the same. The average buyer does not keep papers so there are many watches out there without original papers. Plus, if you don't plan on selling it makes no difference.

[Playdrv4me]

Originally Posted by Perdu

I don't see a problem personally, you pop down the road to Rolex in St. James Square and have them authenticate the watch.Maybe they will give you papers. I know when they changed my bezel they gave me papers that effectively authenticated my watch. They may not be original papers but they prove the watch is a Rolex. Service papers are just the same. The average buyer does not keep papers so there are many watches out there without original papers. Plus, if you don't plan on selling it makes no difference.

Well, and I should make it clear that by no means am I stating that a PAPER or CARD makes the watch legit either. They CAN be fabricated. In that sense an appraisal or authentication receipt from a KNOWN jeweler that can vouch for it is actually more valuable than a warranty paper/card. But the fact exists...

The warranty doc is a one shot deal that comes with the watch new and I like to have it. I guess it is a little weird, but occasionally I pull out my boxes and all the little accessories that come with the watch including the paper and just like to see it all "there".

[sakuraba]

Originally Posted by mactrack

The money you save will merely be lost again if you ever come to resell plus it will be harder to get that sale.

Originally Posted by sambb

papers are not a deal breaker for me... but the price is always a little lower... if you are going to keep the watch, then you may not need the papers..

I am not particular about papers, but if you decide to flip it down the road I imagine it would far be easier with papers. If you're the type who would never sell a watch, service papers or a quick inspection by an AD would suffice.

[Speed]

Ahh the endless Papers issue...I know I started a thread or two on this. Looks like this topic is one with mucho opinions!

[phantom357]

If I were you, I would get the papers. Even though you might save some dough on the front end and you might even think about about keeping the watch but believe me, you will get hooked on another piece and would probably unload some of your current pieces for some funds. Better to have them and not need them than need them and not have them, especially when you have a lot of "anal" Rolex people, including me!!!!!

[Boopie]

Just curious...why doesn't a 2008 watch have papers? It is one thing to get a vintage watch without them, but I would expect papers on a watch that is less than 5-10 years old.

[Tools]

Originally Posted by Boopie

Just curious...why doesn't a 2008 watch have papers? It is one thing to get a vintage watch without them, but I would expect papers on a watch that is less than 5-10 years old.

There really is no such thing as "papers" for a Rolex except in the WIS, collector, and Watch Forum world....

The vast majority of watch buyers don't see the stuff in the box as anything more than the same warranty card as they find with their toaster... Also, many, many Rolex buyers simply purchase, have it fitted in the shop, and walk out the door with their watch on their wrist and their credit card receipt in their pocket... It happens very frequently when buyers purchase "off shore", and wear their watch back in country to bypass customs.

There are likely many more watches out there without "papers" than their are with them..

[Speed]

Originally Posted by Tools

There really is no such thing as "papers" for a Rolex except in the WIS, collector, and Watch Forum world....

The vast majority of watch buyers don't see the stuff in the box as anything more than the same warranty card as they find with their toaster... Also, many, many Rolex buyers simply purchase, have it fitted in the shop, and walk out the door with their watch on their wrist and their credit card receipt in their pocket... It happens very frequently when buyers purchase "off shore", and wear their watch back in country to bypass customs.

There are likely many more watches out there without "papers" than their are with them..

LOVE the new Avatar Larry...

Agree with you, but it seems most online ads I have seen - craigslist, TRF etc. mention papers / or not / boxes etc.

I think we all agree papers seem mostly relevant for resale purposes...but also appears to me you would get the most bang for the buck selling to a WIS - so you better have papers. Otherwise, a newbie / non Rolex fan who looks to buy used / does not know about papers etc. would not be a good target customer.

[Tools]

Originally Posted by masugu

LOVE the new Avatar Larry...

Agree with you, but it seems most online ads I have seen - craigslist, TRF etc. mention papers / or not / boxes etc.

I think we all agree papers seem mostly relevant for resale purposes...but also appears to me you would get the most bang for the buck selling to a WIS - so you better have papers. Otherwise, a newbie / non Rolex fan who looks to buy used / does not know about papers etc. would not be a good target customer.

The recent need for boxes and papers with everything from watches to pens, cameras, barbie dolls, and even toasters is a phenomenon of the Internet world..

The only research or "looking" that anybody does any more extends no further than their monitor and keyboard, so all sales ads and photo lay-outs of product all look the same... and they know that the new buyers want to feel like they are buying a used product that is "like new" - the best way to give them that feeling is to provide the ever present "box and papers".

It's also why there is so much fraud and scamming going on these days.. Scammers know how to steal the right photos, say the right things, and rely on the buyer who isn't going further than his couch..

It's also why there are as many "authentic boxes" and "papers" for sale as watches... pretty good for a commodity that Rolex does not produce separately.............

[Speed]

More good points Larry...

Cutting and pasting of sales pitches is the way things are.

While I like having boxes / papers, I also get them as a safeguard which will let me sell my watch - if I choose to, which I will likely NOT - in the future. Internet or no, I may be at a disadvantage with out these things.

However, I would prefer to find my next watch (hopefully a 5513 or 1680) locally where I can get the inspections done to satisfy / authenticate. I realize that papers etc. for such Vintage pieces would be much tougher to come by.

[onkyo]

Papers do not guarantee 100% authenticity. An unscrupulous seller could swap out original parts for aftermarket ones and the watch would still have box and papers. Then when you try to resell the watch problems arise.

A knowledgeable buyer and a reliable seller is the best chance of getting a 100% authentic Rolex.

To me papers are not very important for modern watches though if I had a choice of papers vs. no papers for the same watch at the same price I would obviously choose papers. But I would not pay a premium for it. For vintage pieces, a complete package can be rare and this adds to the overall value.

[jdrolltide3838]

Obviously its always nice to have them, but it's never a deciding factor to me. The only time the papers mean anything to me is if the warranty is still valid. Other than that, they dont really serve a purpose to me.