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Orchi · 27 February 2010, 01:32 AM

Err buddies...the eBay PowerSeller - Becker Time ...listed this Rolex 16700 GMT...
claiming it to be...

http://cgi.ebay.com/MENS-ROLEX-STAIN...item5639e9530b

100% GENUINE ROLEX - RECENT 1990s QUICKSET MODEL - RARE

THIS IS A RARE 100% GENUINE ROLEX TIMEPIECE THAT IS A TRUE COLLECTOR’S PIECE. IT IS A FULL SIZE GENTS MODEL STAINLESS STEEL OYSTER PERPETUAL GMT-MASTER DATE WATCH WITH THE MOST SOUGHT AFTER AND DESIRED BLACK DIAL AND BLUE/RED “PEPSI” BEZEL.

THE GENUINE ROLEX STAINLESS STEEL OYSTER BRACELET WITH ROLEX SIGNED FLIP CLASP IS IN SUPER EXCELLENT CONDITION. THE ROLEX CLASP IS ADJUSTABLE TO FIT A 7 3/4” UP TO A LARGE 8 1/2 ” WRIST.

Orchi is in opinion...NOT quite so...
because the bezel insert...is Aftermarket Fakeee...
n worst would be the entire Bezel assembly could be Aftermarket Fakeee...too!!!

Compare the font "2"..."12"..."20" n "22"...with bigger TOP or Swan Neck...
on most Aftermarket "GMT" Bezel Inserts...easily available in eBay...
which have these exact font type...

Also Seller claims the Oyster Bracelet is in "SUPER EXCELLENT CONDITIONS"...
But that is NOT true...at all.

The Oyster bracelet assembly is all but...WORN OUT...!!!

moet_chandon80 · 27 February 2010, 01:36 AM

Geez... i saw that seller a few weeks ago. I wonder he/she still on the auction until now.

Earl Camembert · 27 February 2010, 06:13 AM

Big time seller; this should be interesting.

onkyo · 27 February 2010, 06:43 AM

Buddy Orchi, I see the fake insert.... but can you explain the problem with the bracelet??? What am I missing???

golcrazy1202 · 27 February 2010, 07:09 AM

What's wrong with the bracelet? Its interesting cause I bought from Matt Becker a datejust in 2005 and was very happy with the purchase and the after sales service is great. Again, reputable seller. Did you contact the seller to let him know about your expert opinion?

TheBluePrince · 27 February 2010, 07:17 AM

Bracelet looks fine to me. New after-market inserts are common and not a massive problem imo.

CaveDiver · 27 February 2010, 07:26 AM

Keller, Texas, United States, right down the street from me. Does he have a brick & mortar?

bkandj2000 · 27 February 2010, 07:58 AM

I don't know if it's open to the public or this information is current, but I found this online:

Becker Time
1540 Keller Parkway Suite 108, Unit 222
Keller, TX 76248
United States
817-503-2334

BASSETHOUNDS · 27 February 2010, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

Bracelet looks fine to me. New after-market inserts are common and not a massive problem imo.

That is a debate on itself , however what buddy Orchi has rightfully pointed out is that this is not a 100% genuine Rolex as stated by the professional seller . Seller should disclose that fact and then you as buyer can appreciate that or not .

arabesque · 27 February 2010, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

Bracelet looks fine to me. New after-market inserts are common and not a massive problem imo.

The *super excellent* as advertised bracelet looks to have big uneven gaps between links.
The sales pitch is *rare 100% original*. Aftermarkets are not rare and not original if such is the case.

TheBluePrince · 27 February 2010, 08:20 AM

I can't see big uneven gaps, just a bracelet that's hanging/at angles in the pics.

I would not be too bothered about an after-market insert. Each to their own though but i think in this case a nudge to the seller about declaring the insert is in order not a blitz attack to get the whole listing removed.

CaveDiver · 27 February 2010, 08:28 AM

^^
Tell that to Rolex when you take it to a RSC to get serviced. The will say, Not Rolex, No Service Unless Replaced!!!! Not the first time this seller has done questionable sells.

bkandj2000 · 27 February 2010, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onkyo

Buddy Orchi, I see the fake insert.... but can you explain the problem with the bracelet??? What am I missing???

Quote:

Originally Posted by golcrazy1202

What's wrong with the bracelet? Its interesting cause I bought from Matt Becker a datejust in 2005 and was very happy with the purchase and the after sales service is great. Again, reputable seller. Did you contact the seller to let him know about your expert opinion?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arabesque

The *super excellent* as advertised bracelet looks to have big uneven gaps between links.
The sales pitch is *rare 100% original*. Aftermarkets are not rare and not original if such is the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

I can't see big uneven gaps, just a bracelet that's hanging/at angles in the pics.

I would not be too bothered about an after-market insert. Each to their own though but i think in this case a nudge to the seller about declaring the insert is in order not a blitz attack to get the whole listing removed.

A few circled observations to consider:

TheBluePrince · 27 February 2010, 08:39 AM

I see it but imo it's the way it's hanging/sitting and the fact the pics at about 400%.

Seller says super excellent condition and you have to think of that relative to the age of the watch. It's at least 10 years old. I've seen 10yr old oyster bracelets in terrible stretched condition. If it was a brand new or 1-2 year old watch you'd expect super excellent to mean near perfect but on a 10+ year old bracelet such a claim is a lot more relative to expected condition due to age and wear.

bkandj2000 · 27 February 2010, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

I see it but imo it's the way it's hanging/sitting and the fact the pics at about 400%.

Seller says super excellent condition and you have to think of that relative to the age of the watch. It's at least 10 years old. I've seen 10yr old oyster bracelets in terrible stretched condition. If it was a brand new or 1-2 year old watch you'd expect super excellent to mean near perfect but on a 10+ year old bracelet such a claim is a lot more relative to expected condition due to age and wear.

Actully, pic at only 150%. Only enlarged enough to clearly show the added black circles!

Each person has their own definitions, however, super excellent in urbandictionary.com:

"superexcellent
1.being of the utmost bitchingness, 2. wickedly awesome, 3.pee your pants fun"

None of which remind me of the band condition shown.

Blaine

Earl Camembert · 27 February 2010, 10:29 AM

Q: Is this a third party insert or a Rolex replacement? From the look of the font it is third party and that makes it a fraudulent sale and a copyright violation. If one wants to sell Rolex watches he better be ready to earn the big bucks he is making.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaveDiver

^^
Tell that to Rolex when you take it to a RSC to get serviced. The will say, Not Rolex, No Service Unless Replaced!!!!

Rolex USA is a pain in the butt; one tiny touch up on a genuine Rolex dial and it must be replaced. If one left the dial with the slight blemish they would suggest it be replaced but not insist.

CaveDiver · 27 February 2010, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earl Camembert

Rolex USA is a pain in the butt; one tiny touch up on a genuine Rolex dial and it must be replaced. If one left the dial with the slight blemish they would suggest it be replaced but not insist.

Q: Is this a third party insert or a Rolex replacement? From the look of the font it is third party and that makes it a fraudulent sale and a copyright violation. If one wants to sell Rolex watches he better be ready to earn the big bucks he is making.

If your asking me, I'm not the expert.. However Expert buddy Orchi stated:
"Orchi is in opinion...NOT quite so...
because the bezel insert...is Aftermarket Fakeee..."

That to me means not Rolex not Rolex service replacement

springer · 27 February 2010, 10:54 AM

There is no trademark on bezel inserts, it is an aftermarket bezel insert which is different than fake. The band is a bit worn out. The watch is not 100% original. Becker Time has been called to task many times here on the forum. I would call them the "kings of hype."

Nice find Orchi.

Safetrends · 27 February 2010, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

I can't see big uneven gaps, just a bracelet that's hanging/at angles in the pics.

I would not be too bothered about an after-market insert. Each to their own though but i think in this case a nudge to the seller about declaring the insert is in order not a blitz attack to get the whole listing removed.

It is not about a after market bezel it is about a seller who states the watch is 100% Rolex. That is fraud and fraud is fraud. The seller did not disclose about the aftermarket bezel. It needs to be removed and fixed or disclosed about the bezel when he tries to sell it.

If a seller is willing to use a aftermarket bezel what is next? What will the seller use as a aftermarket to sell the watch. It is all about honest selling.

Earl Camembert · 27 February 2010, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaveDiver

If your asking me, I'm not the expert.. However Expert buddy Orchi stated:
"Orchi is in opinion...NOT quite so...
because the bezel insert...is Aftermarket Fakeee..."

That to me means not Rolex not Rolex service replacement

The question was to all and after re

I answered my own question. Very bad for a top trusted seller; very bad indeed.

Earl Camembert · 27 February 2010, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by springer

There is no trademark on bezel inserts, it is an aftermarket bezel insert which is different than fake.
Nice find Orchi.

The seller said 100% Rolex so it a fake.

Newportkrieger · 27 February 2010, 01:28 PM

I am trying to learn about GMT's and I have a 16700.

Thank you for all your help Orchi!!!!!!

Steve

springer · 27 February 2010, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earl Camembert

The seller said 100% Rolex so it a fake.

Hi Earl, I think I addressed your observation in my previous post.

But, if an aftermarket bezel insert makes it fake, then there are thousands upon thousands of fake Rolexes out there. I don't believe that because the bezel insert is aftermarket makes the watch "fake." It might be a Rolex wearing a non-original part, but that doesn't make the watch fake. If I have some aftermarket parts on my Chevy, it is not a fake. If I have parts on the car, marked GMC or Chevrolet that are fake, then it is a fake. Same for this watch. There are thousands of these watches out there with aftermarket bezel inserts. There are thousands of Rolexes out there with Italian bands without the Rolex branded clasps - they are not fake. Again, Becker Time leads ebay in misleading or over-hyping watches.

Sorry, but I don't agree with you on this one. And, because Rolex won't service the watch because it has an aftermarket bezel insert, means to me, Rolex won't service it!!!!!

Fake and aftermarket are not synonymous to me.

springer · 27 February 2010, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Safetrends

It is not about a after market bezel it is about a seller who states the watch is 100% Rolex. That is fraud and fraud is fraud. The seller did not disclose about the aftermarket bezel. It needs to be removed and fixed or disclosed about the bezel when he tries to sell it.

If a seller is willing to use a aftermarket bezel what is next? What will the seller use as a aftermarket to sell the watch. It is all about honest selling.

Couldn't agree with you more Safe T. Becker Time is the king of shenanigans. If you do a search, you'll see he's been discussed a few times here. Most of us just avoid him and his auctions. Ebay's been contacted many times about his auctions. It's ebay's problem, as they continue to offer him a venue for his watches. And, if there is an issue, ebay guarantees all purchases there now.

Earl Camembert · 27 February 2010, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by springer

But, if an aftermarket bezel insert makes it fake, then there are thousands upon thousands of fake Rolexes out there. I don't believe that because the bezel insert is aftermarket makes the watch "fake." It might be a Rolex wearing a non-original part, but that doesn't make the watch fake. If I have some aftermarket parts on my Chevy, it is not a fake.

This watch is advertised as a:

Quote:

THIS IS A RARE 100% GENUINE ROLEX TIMEPIECE THAT IS A TRUE COLLECTOR’S PIECE.

I you were selling a Chevy as a collector piece to get the maximum price you would say 100% all numbers match. If they did not the worth is cut in half.

This seller is virtually saying all numbers match when in fact they do not. If he wants to sell at watch to a guy that just wants a Rolex fine but he is going for the big bucks and is knowingly making false statements.

I know to be a Top Seller on eBay one only has to hustle big bucks for eBay but this is not eBay. This is "WatchOut", take of the small stuff and the big lies will not happen.

Orchi · 27 February 2010, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newportkrieger

I am trying to learn about GMT's and I have a 16700.

Thank you for all your help Orchi!!!!!!

Steve

Err buddy Steve...welcome to this Great TRF WatchOut forum...

It's Orchi's pleasure to show you these Original Rolex bezel inserts...
on Rolex 16700 GMT(Sapphire Crystal + QuickSet Cal. 3175 movement)...

NOTE: Please take note that...besides the Rolex 16700 GMT...
these Original Bezel Inserts can also be fitted to ANY Rolex 16760 GMT aka Fat Lady("COKE" only)...
or Rolex 16710 GMT...with Sapphire crystal...
(Identical Bezel Assembly)

"All Black" - with Prominent San Serif on Arabic Numeric fonts...

"PEPSI" - without San Serif on Arabic Numeric fonts...
(Pic courtesy of VRF Dial Archive...)

"COKE" - with San Serif on Arabic numeric fonts...
(Pic courtesy of VRF Dial Archive...)

Orchi · 27 February 2010, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkandj2000

A few circled observations to consider:

Err buddy Blaine...you n buddy Springer...
are absolutely spot on...

The bracelet links on those sections are...worn out...
The hinges to Endlinks...are worn out...
The rest of the bracelet links(not shown in pics) would likely be MORE...Worn OUT!!!

idk01 · 27 February 2010, 10:41 PM

Guys, Beckertime is a member here on TRF, I'll pop him a PM.

Dave.

Beckertime · 28 February 2010, 02:11 AM

The description has been added to to properly disclose the bezel. We all know how long it takes to order a bezel insert from Rolex. Pictures were taken before my watchmaker fully serviced the watch. The watch is 100% original Rolex. There is no aftermarket parts on this baby.

TheBluePrince · 28 February 2010, 02:14 AM

Orchi - Thanks for the pics of the different bezels. You're getting the names/styles slightly wrong though. "San(s) Serif" means without serifs. So the 1st pic in your post No.26 is a Serif insert, the 2nd is sans serif and the 3rd is serif.

Again, i feel the need to reitterate the need for perspective and looking at the whole, big picture when looking at watches such as this and not getting stuck looking at, and being misled by small details that are really inconsequential. It is a 1990's watch so 10-20 years old. Lets take the median and say 15 years old.

Now, the bezel inserts are the most easily damaged, scratched, chipped, dinged, dented, faded and worn cosmetic parts on the GMT, Sub etc (hence why Rolex are now using tougher ceramic inserts). Luckily they are also the easieset, simplest and cheapest to replace. They are often replaced. This one has been. To be expected on a 15 year old watch imo. Maybe the seller thought a new insert would be welcomed by most buyers as the old was indeed scratched, faded, damged etc. Lets remember this is likely on a 15 year old watch. The rest of the watch is in great condition. Crystal, dial, bezel assembly (other than disputed insert), crown, case all in great condition for a 15 year old watch.

Now, the bracelet. It's a bad picture, you can't see it resting naturally so you can't accuraltey judge it. It's 15 years old. Remember - perspective, the bigger picture. Anyone who's owned a hollow oyster bracelet knows how easily they stretch and can get damaged. This one is far from worn out judging by the one bad picture. Now, the seller could have had it made "perfect" again. No doubt using a fair few non original links, screws, hinges etc. Nearly all the watches you see for sale with perfect looking old bracelets will have been repaired in some ways. Nearly always with non Rolex parts and you won't have any idea, they're that good. This one hasn't, it looks to be in original 15 year old good condition.

So basically people are saying that the non original bezel insert is a bad thing but the original bracelet is also a bad thing. If the seller had had the bracelet repaired/restored with non original parts (which you wouldn't have a clue about or be able to tell and which a lot of older bracelets are) would people be saying how good it looked?

27 February 2010, 01:32 AM	#1
Orchi Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Malaysia Posts: 2,934	NOT 100% GENUINE ROLEX-RECENT 1990s QUICKSET MODEL-RARE..Becker Time. Err buddies...the eBay PowerSeller - Becker Time ...listed this Rolex 16700 GMT... claiming it to be... http://cgi.ebay.com/MENS-ROLEX-STAIN...item5639e9530b 100% GENUINE ROLEX - RECENT 1990s QUICKSET MODEL - RARE THIS IS A RARE 100% GENUINE ROLEX TIMEPIECE THAT IS A TRUE COLLECTOR’S PIECE. IT IS A FULL SIZE GENTS MODEL STAINLESS STEEL OYSTER PERPETUAL GMT-MASTER DATE WATCH WITH THE MOST SOUGHT AFTER AND DESIRED BLACK DIAL AND BLUE/RED “PEPSI” BEZEL. THE GENUINE ROLEX STAINLESS STEEL OYSTER BRACELET WITH ROLEX SIGNED FLIP CLASP IS IN SUPER EXCELLENT CONDITION. THE ROLEX CLASP IS ADJUSTABLE TO FIT A 7 3/4” UP TO A LARGE 8 1/2 ” WRIST. Orchi is in opinion...NOT quite so... because the bezel insert...is Aftermarket Fakeee... n worst would be the entire Bezel assembly could be Aftermarket Fakeee...too!!! Compare the font "2"..."12"..."20" n "22"...with bigger TOP or Swan Neck... on most Aftermarket "GMT" Bezel Inserts...easily available in eBay... which have these exact font type... Also Seller claims the Oyster Bracelet is in "SUPER EXCELLENT CONDITIONS"... But that is NOT true...at all. The Oyster bracelet assembly is all but...WORN OUT...!!! Attached Images

27 February 2010, 10:54 AM	#18
springer 2024 SubLV41 Pledge Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Real Name: jP Location: Texas Watch: GMT-MASTER Posts: 17,319	There is no trademark on bezel inserts, it is an aftermarket bezel insert which is different than fake. The band is a bit worn out. The watch is not 100% original. Becker Time has been called to task many times here on the forum. I would call them the "kings of hype." Nice find Orchi. __________________ Member of NAWCC since 1990. INSTAGRAM USER NAME: SPRINGERJFP Visit my Instagram page to view some of the finest vintage GMTs anywhere - as well as other vintage classics.

27 February 2010, 01:28 PM	#22
Newportkrieger Banned Join Date: Nov 2009 Real Name: Steve Location: Newport Beach, CA Watch: GMT Master Pepsi Posts: 1,243	Nice catch......Can Orchi post a correct bezel photo for comparison please I am trying to learn about GMT's and I have a 16700. Thank you for all your help Orchi!!!!!! Steve

27 February 2010, 10:41 PM	#28
idk01 "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Real Name: Dave Location: Australia Watch: DJ16233TT Posts: 18,485	Guys, Beckertime is a member here on TRF, I'll pop him a PM. Dave. __________________ *Apprentice to Terry Newton; Superstar and Fake Sleuth*

27 February 2010, 01:36 AM	#2
moet_chandon80 "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Munich, Germany Posts: 90	Geez... i saw that seller a few weeks ago. I wonder he/she still on the auction until now.

27 February 2010, 06:13 AM	#3
Earl Camembert Banned Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: New Jersey Posts: 1,858	Big time seller; this should be interesting.

27 February 2010, 06:43 AM	#4
onkyo Banned Join Date: Apr 2008 Real Name: Pav Location: Manhattan Posts: 11,495	Buddy Orchi, I see the fake insert.... but can you explain the problem with the bracelet??? What am I missing???

27 February 2010, 07:09 AM	#5
golcrazy1202 Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Real Name: George Location: Toronto, Canada Watch: tt Datejust; 6694 Posts: 97	What's wrong with the bracelet? Its interesting cause I bought from Matt Becker a datejust in 2005 and was very happy with the purchase and the after sales service is great. Again, reputable seller. Did you contact the seller to let him know about your expert opinion?

27 February 2010, 07:17 AM	#6
TheBluePrince "TRF" Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: London Posts: 2,081	Bracelet looks fine to me. New after-market inserts are common and not a massive problem imo.

27 February 2010, 07:26 AM	#7
CaveDiver "TRF" Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Dallas Posts: 1,075	Keller, Texas, United States, right down the street from me. Does he have a brick & mortar?

27 February 2010, 07:58 AM	#8
bkandj2000 Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Real Name: B A Location: Oklahoma Watch: None specifically Posts: 651	I don't know if it's open to the public or this information is current, but I found this online: Becker Time 1540 Keller Parkway Suite 108, Unit 222 Keller, TX 76248 United States 817-503-2334

27 February 2010, 08:20 AM	#11
TheBluePrince "TRF" Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: London Posts: 2,081	I can't see big uneven gaps, just a bracelet that's hanging/at angles in the pics. I would not be too bothered about an after-market insert. Each to their own though but i think in this case a nudge to the seller about declaring the insert is in order not a blitz attack to get the whole listing removed.

27 February 2010, 08:28 AM	#12
CaveDiver "TRF" Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Dallas Posts: 1,075	^^ Tell that to Rolex when you take it to a RSC to get serviced. The will say, Not Rolex, No Service Unless Replaced!!!! Not the first time this seller has done questionable sells.

27 February 2010, 08:39 AM	#14
TheBluePrince "TRF" Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: London Posts: 2,081	I see it but imo it's the way it's hanging/sitting and the fact the pics at about 400%. Seller says super excellent condition and you have to think of that relative to the age of the watch. It's at least 10 years old. I've seen 10yr old oyster bracelets in terrible stretched condition. If it was a brand new or 1-2 year old watch you'd expect super excellent to mean near perfect but on a 10+ year old bracelet such a claim is a lot more relative to expected condition due to age and wear.

28 February 2010, 02:11 AM	#29
Beckertime "TRF" Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Real Name: Matt Location: Keller, Texas Posts: 24	The description has been added to to properly disclose the bezel. We all know how long it takes to order a bezel insert from Rolex. Pictures were taken before my watchmaker fully serviced the watch. The watch is 100% original Rolex. There is no aftermarket parts on this baby.

28 February 2010, 02:14 AM	#30
TheBluePrince "TRF" Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: London Posts: 2,081	Orchi - Thanks for the pics of the different bezels. You're getting the names/styles slightly wrong though. "San(s) Serif" means without serifs. So the 1st pic in your post No.26 is a Serif insert, the 2nd is sans serif and the 3rd is serif. Again, i feel the need to reitterate the need for perspective and looking at the whole, big picture when looking at watches such as this and not getting stuck looking at, and being misled by small details that are really inconsequential. It is a 1990's watch so 10-20 years old. Lets take the median and say 15 years old. Now, the bezel inserts are the most easily damaged, scratched, chipped, dinged, dented, faded and worn cosmetic parts on the GMT, Sub etc (hence why Rolex are now using tougher ceramic inserts). Luckily they are also the easieset, simplest and cheapest to replace. They are often replaced. This one has been. To be expected on a 15 year old watch imo. Maybe the seller thought a new insert would be welcomed by most buyers as the old was indeed scratched, faded, damged etc. Lets remember this is likely on a 15 year old watch. The rest of the watch is in great condition. Crystal, dial, bezel assembly (other than disputed insert), crown, case all in great condition for a 15 year old watch. Now, the bracelet. It's a bad picture, you can't see it resting naturally so you can't accuraltey judge it. It's 15 years old. Remember - perspective, the bigger picture. Anyone who's owned a hollow oyster bracelet knows how easily they stretch and can get damaged. This one is far from worn out judging by the one bad picture. Now, the seller could have had it made "perfect" again. No doubt using a fair few non original links, screws, hinges etc. Nearly all the watches you see for sale with perfect looking old bracelets will have been repaired in some ways. Nearly always with non Rolex parts and you won't have any idea, they're that good. This one hasn't, it looks to be in original 15 year old good condition. So basically people are saying that the non original bezel insert is a bad thing but the original bracelet is also a bad thing. If the seller had had the bracelet repaired/restored with non original parts (which you wouldn't have a clue about or be able to tell and which a lot of older bracelets are) would people be saying how good it looked?

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