Sub missing markers

[D_o_S]

Hi guys,

a friend of mine bought a Sub 16610 new serial... we had it over at my place for a day... time keeping is excelent at -1s day, face up overnight = 0s (apparently), however, what is more puzzling is that the hands seem to miss the markers every once in a while!!!

We tried setting the watch in different positions. First setting was done by AD...

Basically, what happens is... you set the watch to 6:30 say, making sure the hand lines up with the marker... then at 6:45 it's OK... but the next hour (7:45) the minute hand only half covers the marker, and then moves on by halfs, etc, etc... for I dunno how long... and then all of a sudden, it starts to hit the markers again?

I'm guessing this is not normal, is it? My $150 seiko hits the markers precisely where I set it, every time, any time. On the other hand, it does do +20s/day, but even so, it hits the markers straight on.

At first I thought, might be the angle we're looking at the watch at... but anyway you look at it, it is obviously wrong (I mean half wrong is certainly discernable)!

We tried winding the date forward a few times, and turning the time around a few times

Any more ideas guys? The watch is new... does it need some break in?

If it doesn't fix itself, what do we do? I guess take it to the AD?

We also tried hand winding the watch...

[Traveler]

All I can say is that every new Rolex I buy will have the hands line up with the markers exaxtly or I wont purchase. Rolex, for the prices they are charging should at least be able to have this level of quality control...In ALL Rolex advertising..the crowns are straight vertical and the hands are always lined up on the markers. Does the consumer deserve less ?

[Tools]

I think that you are putting way too much thought into a mechanically geared needle moving around a painted dial.........

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Tools

I think that you are putting way too much thought into a mechanically geared needle moving around a painted dial.........

Have to agree with larry being mechanical there will be a very very tiny amount of gear position slack on hands.

[springbar]

Originally Posted by Tools

I think that you are putting way too much thought into a mechanically geared needle moving around a painted dial.........

If the OP is referring to the hour markers, and the minute hand is misaligned with them by fully HALF their width, that's a bit much.

[moviefreak]

any pictures or a graphical explanation???

Originally Posted by D_o_S

Hi guys,

a friend of mine bought a Sub 16610 new serial... we had it over at my place for a day... time keeping is excelent at -1s day, face up overnight = 0s (apparently), however, what is more puzzling is that the hands seem to miss the markers every once in a while!!!

We tried setting the watch in different positions. First setting was done by AD...

Basically, what happens is... you set the watch to 6:30 say, making sure the hand lines up with the marker... then at 6:45 it's OK... but the next hour (7:45) the minute hand only half covers the marker, and then moves on by halfs, etc, etc... for I dunno how long... and then all of a sudden, it starts to hit the markers again?

I'm guessing this is not normal, is it? My $150 seiko hits the markers precisely where I set it, every time, any time. On the other hand, it does do +20s/day, but even so, it hits the markers straight on.

At first I thought, might be the angle we're looking at the watch at... but anyway you look at it, it is obviously wrong (I mean half wrong is certainly discernable)!

We tried winding the date forward a few times, and turning the time around a few times

Any more ideas guys? The watch is new... does it need some break in?

If it doesn't fix itself, what do we do? I guess take it to the AD?

We also tried hand winding the watch...

[D_o_S]

Originally Posted by springbar

If the OP is referring to the hour markers, and the minute hand is misaligned with them by fully HALF their width, that's a bit much.

Yes, just so we understand... it's the minute hand that is missing the hour markers by half their width on a cycle...

[Tools]

Originally Posted by springbar

If the OP is referring to the hour markers, and the minute hand is misaligned with them by fully HALF their width, that's a bit much.

Originally Posted by D_o_S

Yes, just so we understand... it's the minute hand that is missing the hour markers by half their width on a cycle...

Missing what, a painted, or manually placed mark on a circular layout, and by what standard ??

I know that it's a bit hard to conceptualize in this age of digitized everything and micro processors....... but a mechanical, gear driven anything - especially a watch - must have clearance (lash) or it simply will not work..

You can line stuff up all day long but there will still be some play within the parts. When you push in the crown, there is no way of knowing where in the geartrain everything suddenly engages, then takes up what slack (lash), and then begins moving in unison...

That, and needing a loupe to look at such nuances, and moving your eye back and forth from when it appears to pass a certain point, then trying to correlate a minute hand to it........... I'm afraid that I just don't see a point to this exercise..........

A watch is simply a representation...... it isn't really "time", and a paint-lick off here, and a tiny RCH there doesn't change time....... and well, that's the charm and allure of the mechanical timepiece..........

[STEELINOX]

Originally Posted by Tools

Missing what, a painted, or manually placed mark on a circular layout, and by what standard ??

I know that it's a bit hard to conceptualize in this age of digitized everything and micro processors....... but a mechanical, gear driven anything - especially a watch - must have clearance (lash) or it simply will not work..

You can line stuff up all day long but there will still be some play within the parts. When you push in the crown, there is no way of knowing where in the geartrain everything suddenly engages, then takes up what slack (lash), and then begins moving in unison...

That, and needing a loupe to look at such nuances, and moving your eye back and forth from when it appears to pass a certain point, then trying to correlate a minute hand to it........... I'm afraid that I just don't see a point to this exercise..........

A watch is simply a representation...... it isn't really "time", and a paint-lick off here, and a tiny RCH there doesn't change time....... and well, that's the charm and allure of the mechanical timepiece..........

Agree, and if you dont like it go and get a quartz;they are not much better though !

[springbar]

Originally Posted by Tools

Missing what, a painted, or manually placed mark on a circular layout, and by what standard ??

I know that it's a bit hard to conceptualize in this age of digitized everything and micro processors....... but a mechanical, gear driven anything - especially a watch - must have clearance (lash) or it simply will not work..

You can line stuff up all day long but there will still be some play within the parts. When you push in the crown, there is no way of knowing where in the geartrain everything suddenly engages, then takes up what slack (lash), and then begins moving in unison...

That, and needing a loupe to look at such nuances, and moving your eye back and forth from when it appears to pass a certain point, then trying to correlate a minute hand to it........... I'm afraid that I just don't see a point to this exercise..........

A watch is simply a representation...... it isn't really "time", and a paint-lick off here, and a tiny RCH there doesn't change time....... and well, that's the charm and allure of the mechanical timepiece..........

There are acceptable and unacceptable amounts of lash.

It doesn't sound like we're talking about a "paint-lick," we're talking about enough hysteresis in the minute hand to span the width of an hour marker. And this is observed while the watch is running, not while it's being set.

If so, that's nearly a full graduation of noise in the minute hand, which would be excessive.

A picture would help.

[D_o_S]

Originally Posted by springbar

There are acceptable and unacceptable amounts of lash.

It doesn't sound like we're talking about a "paint-lick," we're talking about enough hysteresis in the minute hand to span the width of an hour marker. And this is observed while the watch is running, not while it's being set.

If so, that's nearly a full graduation of noise in the minute hand, which would be excessive.

A picture would help.

Well, how do I put it more precisely... Take the flat hour marker at position 6:00... when the watch is working precisely, the minute hand will cover up the hour marker at exactly 00 seconds, and then move over to the next paint lick over a 60s cycle.

However, on this watch, it only covers half of the marker at 00 seconds. After 60 seconds, it is exactly between 2 paint licks...

Some time later, it points precisely at a paint lick at 00 seconds.

The time deviation vs. the clock I have on my wall (radio controlled) is -1s/day.

Take this picture for example:
http://www.thrasherqawwal.com/wp-con...olex-watch.jpg

This is how the minute hand should look like half its way towards 11 minutes, as demonstrated by the position of the minute and second hands.

On my friend's watch, you see the same thing, but the seconds hand is already at 00 seconds. 60 seconds later, the minute hand will be inbetween the 11th and 12th lick

[mcubed]

WOW, I would never have even thought in a million years to test for something like that.

I just set my watch then when it is a few minutes off from my computer clock, I reset it.

Actually I have some guidelines for new owners.

1) set your watch-when it gets to be 5 minutes off, reset. If this happens in a week, worry
2) Look at your watch with your eyes only, put the loupe DOWN
3) Keep it on your wrist unless you are sleeping, showering, using a jackhammer or are afraid of highwaymen
4) If it is a Sub, and you take it off before washing your hands-please take it back to the dealer and get something else

[gqllc]

Originally Posted by mcubed

wow, i would never have even thought in a million years to test for something like that.

I just set my watch then when it is a few minutes off from my computer clock, i reset it.

x2

[chris russell]

I propose that your friend give me his mailing address and that I send him a new Seiko or Citizen quartz watch of his choice, (with the hands lining up perfectly), and he send me the Rolex for humane disposal. Even-trade, I won't charge him a penny. Hell, I'll even cover the shipping. We all gotta do what we can here.

[springbar]

Originally Posted by mcubed

WOW, I would never have even thought in a million years to test for something like that.

These snarky remarks about nit-pickers and their loupes are unfair. If I understand him, the OP is asking whether a Submariner should exhibit a full graduation of error in the minute hand reading from one hour to the next. This is readily observable to the naked eye. It sounds excessive to me.

The minute hand My 21 year-old Datejust, in contrast, advances with so little noise that you can use it to determine the time to within about 15 seconds without looking at the second hand.

[Brenngun]

Originally Posted by chris russell

I propose that your friend give me his mailing address and that I send him a new Seiko or Citizen quartz watch of his choice, (with the hands lining up perfectly), and he send me the Rolex for humane disposal. Even-trade, I won't charge him a penny. Hell, I'll even cover the shipping. We all gotta do what we can here.

Really Chris.. You tried the same lame suggestion on 2 different threads? You must be the worlds most optomistic person or just out of ideas.

[Joshua74]

I noticed the same thing with mine, a new sub (V series). Strange... Deviation is -1 sec per day which is very correct. But minutes hand isn't always in front of the minutes marker when seconds hands is on 00 sec. It's halfway, but not always, it's sometimes right in front of the marker (without doing anything)...

I will pay attention to that...

[AndersB]

D o S
The issue you describe - often referred to as gear slack - is normal I would say. I have noticed the same thing on the 3 Rolex watches I've owned. Varying degrees but on all of them, up to as much as about 25 secs difference (i.e. minute hand can hit the marker at any point between the seconds hand being at 60 and 25 if you see what I mean.

Some people here at TRF claim that you can get rid of gear slack, or at least reduce it, by first setting the watch say 30 minutes "later" than actual time and then, before pusing the crown in, turning it back to actual time. I've tried it but have never been able to get rid of the slack completely.

Anyway, as I said, what you describe seems normal.

[JJK]

Pick a minute marker on the track where the min hand hits it perfectly at 00. Does it hit this same min mark perfectly ever hour? – if so the dial is slightly “our or round” or the printing on the dial is off. I’ve seen that on many watches - Rolex, Omega, IWC, and JLC.
JJK

[George Ab]

D o S,

Hey I see you are kind of new and I wanted to welcome you to the forum. Please don't judge the forum by the comments of a few who rather than trying to understand your problem and provide expertise would rather express their creativity by throwing subtle jabs at you.

With my Sub, Daytona, and Explorer each 360° movement of the second hand the minute hand moves 6° (a minute graduation). The minute markers are pretty right on each 6° so the minute lines up to the same relative position to the next minute marker every minute.