Rolex Submariner with NO case reference number markings

[Whoop!]

I have been given a gold Rolex Oyster Perpetual Date Submariner. Serial # 922****. I detached the bracelet from the watch body and found the serial number at the 6 o'clock position but the 12 o'clock position is blank. No case reference number there. Nothing there. The information I have been able to find indicates there should be a case reference number in the 12 o'clock position.

A jeweler has inspected the watch and said there is information inside indicating it was last inspected/serviced in 2000. He didn't know why there was no CRN on the exterior.

Does anyone know why the 12 o'clock position is blank??

Thanks.

[Xenophon]

I know that the very latest ones don't have the serial number between the lugs at 6. When I first saw this I phoned up Rolex UK and asked them. They confirmed that it's now only on the rehaut. Never heard of the model reference not being between the lugs at 12 though.

[SLS]

You typically see this in much older watches where the endlinks have worn the serial number off. The 9 million serial dates the watch to 1986...can you take any pictures of the blank area?
Scott

[DRAWTOOL]

I would take that "gift horse" to a Rolex jeweler and have him look in its mouth.

[Whoop!]

Have gotten a bit of clarification from the jeweler. He says that because there is no CRN at that 12 o'clock position he cannot certify the case as Rolex although everything else about the case seems to be correct. He said the bracelet looks genuine and the interior is definitely genuine. I get the impression he is confused by the missing CRN. At one point he hesitantly suggested that the number might have been removed at the time of that last servicing in 2000.
Have taken some photos and will try to find time to upload.
Thanks for the responses.

[GradyPhilpott]

Aren't the serial numbers removed by some gray dealers, or at least at one time they were, to avoid tracing the watch to the AD from which it came?

[greekbum]

Please post detailed pictures of the whole watch.

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by greekbum

Please post detailed pictures of the whole watch.

Yes, please do, this is VERY interesting...

[Whoop!]

I got further clarification from the jeweler. The interior shows it was made in 1985. There is an indication it was serviced in 2000. It has a 3135 movement.
I have seen charts showing that in 1985 they would have put a 3035 movement in it. A few years after 85 they began using 3135. I talked to my brother-in-law (former owner) and he said that in 2000 he sent it in for service because it wasn't working correctly. He didn't elaborate and I knew better than to inquire too closely.
So my guess, and it is just a guess, is that the 2000 servicing replaced the 3035 with 3135 and they "erased" the case reference number because of that replacement.
Very much just a guess.

I have never uploaded photos to a forum before so I HOPE I did it correctly.

[burger'n'fries]

Beautiful watch and that's one amazing brother-in-law you have there. Mine never gave me anything.

[wuzzzer]

Originally Posted by GradyPhilpott

Aren't the serial numbers removed by some gray dealers, or at least at one time they were, to avoid tracing the watch to the AD from which it came?

Come on guys, why does everyone think he's talking about the serial #?? He posted in the first post that the serial number is there, even posted the first few digits of it!! He's talking about the Reference/Model number being non-existent at the 12 o'clock side.

[Tools]

I don't think that Rolex would have intentionally taken off the model number.. Regardless of the movement inside, the reference number is still the same..

Unless you have confirmation that the watch was actually purchased in '85, I also would expect that a solid gold Sub with that number would be much later...... probably by 2 or 3 years, and so the 3135 movement could be correct..

[Warnsboy]

Wouldn't the bracelet clasp code date the production within reason!

[SLS]

I thought that the YG Subs always had SEL?
Scott

[Tools]

Originally Posted by SLS

I thought that the YG Subs always had SEL?
Scott

Looks like SEL case and bracelet to me...........

[SLS]

Originally Posted by Tools

Looks like SEL case and bracelet to me...........

I was just going to edit my post...the bracelet pic had me fooled, I did not look at the endlinks on the first pic.
Scott

[Tools]

Originally Posted by SLS

I was just going to edit my post...the last pic had me fooled, I did not look at the endlinks on the first pic.
Scott

Usually I'm not that fast on my answers...............

[SLS]

Originally Posted by Tools

Usually I'm not that fast on my answers...............

slow night i guess!

Scott

[rkammer]

Looks like the end links are solid on the photo of the watch with bracelet installed but they look hollow ln the photo of just the bracelet. Am I looking at it wrong or are we seeing two different bracelets?

[Z-Sub]

Agree, the bracelet shown does not have a SEL, it is stamped instead

[nowzen]

assuming it once had a model number...
you might want to rephotograph the spot and repost here. With the light positioned at an acute angle (from side) to hilight slight deformations. Using photoshop filters we might be eble to extract something?

BTW, does anybody know what model number this watch should be?...

[greekbum]

In the back of the case backside of the lugs it should be stamped can you take a close up of the back of the watch

An example in this excellent site: http://stefanomazzariol.blogspot.com...gold%20watches

[rangrov]

I may be wrong and i hope i am, but it looks like one of the 18ct italian coppies from turkey and other numerous countries, i think it needs checking out fully guys...........

[Racer X]

The serial no. stamp seems crooked and a bit crude to me. Hope I'm wrong, but I question whether this is a Rolex case.

[s1m0n]

Like others have said, hope I am wrong but the bracelet looks wrong, end links are similar to fake SEL end links also look at the ROLEX stamped on the clasp looks to big again similar to fake clasps.

Hope I am wrong

Simon

[Whoop!]

Will take some closer photos of the areas suggested. I have a dissecting scope (very good magnification) and I'll use that to look at where the CRN should be. I agree that proper lighting may show something in that area. Should have done that first.

Same bracelet in all photos. There is a number on the bracelet where it connects to the case. 46 On the inside where it is not visible when bracelet is connected.

The serial number is not quite "level". Very slightly off. But all numbers evenly spaced and in line with each other. Again, will take closer photo.

If it is a fake it fooled our jeweler, though he may not have as much knowledge of Rolexes as the folks here.

Sure appreciate the interest and assistance!

[vitix]

Originally Posted by Whoop!

Will take some closer photos of the areas suggested. I have a dissecting scope (very good magnification) and I'll use that to look at where the CRN should be. I agree that proper lighting may show something in that area. Should have done that first.

Same bracelet in all photos. There is a number on the bracelet where it connects to the case. 46 On the inside where it is not visible when bracelet is connected.

The serial number is not quite "level". Very slightly off. But all numbers evenly spaced and in line with each other. Again, will take closer photo.

If it is a fake it fooled our jeweler, though he may not have as much knowledge of Rolexes as the folks here.

Sure appreciate the interest and assistance!

but if is a fake, your brother in law did not took it to service to a RCS, maybe a watchmaker did the service...

[psv]

Sorry, but you should have reasonable suspension at this point that the watch is fake, entirely or partly. the problem is that you can't send it to Rolex to ask as they would confiscate it.

let us know how it goes.

[austinnh]

Originally Posted by psv

the problem is that you can't send it to Rolex to ask as they would confiscate it.

They can do that? I would think that the owner of the watch would have some legal protection from something like that.

Is it likely a fake watch would have the correct 3135 movement?

I agree the bracelet doesn't seem right.

[Tools]

I don't see anything wrong with this watch except the 12 oclock stamping is worn off...

Bracelet SEL's are not really solid....they are hollow, just like the stamped... they are simply machined castings instead of stampings.. When we say "solid end link" we mean that it is attatached solidly to the rest of the bracelet and not a seperate piece. I would want to see a lot more of the bracelet before I declared it a fake or an aftermarket......

Here is a close-up of the profile of an "SEL"..