Faking it? Why?

[Davew833]

Being a new owner of an (twice- authenticated) red 1680 sub, I was a bit surprised at the fact that it's a very common 'faked' sub, and that some counterfeits of red 1680's are good enough to fool experts under close scrutiny (i.e.: under a loupe with the caseback off) If these fakes are made so meticulously that experts are consistently fooled, what's the motivation? There must be a pretty big investment in time/money/tooling/r&d techniques to fake age and wear, etc. Doesn't the profit margin go out the window then? Is it just done to cause fear and panic in new vintage owners like myself and skew the market? I understand some counterfeiters of money, fine art, etc., do it simply as a 'labor of love,' or just to prove how skilled they are. Any insights into the psyche of 'high end' counterfeiters?

[Frogman4me]

I doubt experts are getting faked when they have the opportunity for a full inspection, if its a fake it will get noticed by someone.

[stevemulholland3]

I want everyone in the collector community to not worry..as of now there are no fakes that are so good that they wouldn't get identified as a fake under a complete inspection..
I have seen some that look really good online,but when seen and handled in person they seem to all suffer the same defects of character shall we say,as all those crude fakes we saw so many of a few years ago..
It's true that many of the newest fakes no longer have the easily spotted "E"'s that made it easy to pick out the old ones,but there are other less known features that the fakers don't have a clue about..and I for one will not make the same mistake of posting all of the ways that the fakes are flawed..I have heard from several associates in the watch community who deal in the far east on a regular basis that the counterfeit shops would actually frequent sites like ours to learn what people look for to determine fakes so they know what to improve on..
But I for one don't believe that there will ever be a fake so perfect that it's undetectable..at least not in the vintage world..there are methods being developed by a couple of people in our field that will enable a collector to take a scraping of their case and without getting into the technical aspects of the how's,they will be able to basically detect even the most aesthetically perfect copies..because no matter how well they make the watch appear,they cannot reproduce Rolex steel from the time period..
Anyways..I am off to bed.
Ciao everyone!

[BarkMaster]

I don't think that the fakes need to fool experts... just careless and/or uninformed potential buyers. Most of us are not experts and may be fooled by the better fakes.

I hear and understand "buy the seller", but I am of the mind that a buyer should "trust, but verify" regardless who the seller is.

I am with you on this.... I don't understand the business model of faking vintage, unless the payback is large for each piece. I would think that cheap fakes of the current (oversized) models would be the most profitable, given the target audience (hip-hop wannabes )

[HL65]

Originally Posted by stevemulholland3

I want everyone in the collector community to not worry..as of now there are no fakes that are so good that they wouldn't get identified as a fake under a complete inspection..
I have seen some that look really good online,but when seen and handled in person they seem to all suffer the same defects of character shall we say,as all those crude fakes we saw so many of a few years ago..
It's true that many of the newest fakes no longer have the easily spotted "E"'s that made it easy to pick out the old ones,but there are other less known features that the fakers don't have a clue about..and I for one will not make the same mistake of posting all of the ways that the fakes are flawed..I have heard from several associates in the watch community who deal in the far east on a regular basis that the counterfeit shops would actually frequent sites like ours to learn what people look for to determine fakes so they know what to improve on..
But I for one don't believe that there will ever be a fake so perfect that it's undetectable..at least not in the vintage world..there are methods being developed by a couple of people in our field that will enable a collector to take a scraping of their case and without getting into the technical aspects of the how's,they will be able to basically detect even the most aesthetically perfect copies..because no matter how well they make the watch appear,they cannot reproduce Rolex steel from the time period..
Anyways..I am off to bed.
Ciao everyone!

Well said Steve!!

[Frogman4me]

When I was thinking expert I was thinking Steve and Ken. I'm glad you guys agree with my statement, no fake will go undetected! or your money back lol

[Rickster]

You ask a great question that I have asked in my business many times “how can they sell it for that?” Well they are and they are definitely making a profit doing it or else they wouldn’t do it. With demand any product will be faked for a profit. When you have the tools and/or equipment to manufacture a product the actual reproduction of that product is almost nil.

Luckily this forum has many great experts & sellers like Steve where you can feel confident buying your piece. Buy the seller. Buy from an expert. Buy a no hassle return policy and have some piece of mind.

[volkersports]

I am more concerned about "frankenwatches" where all the parts are authetic and pieced together to make a vintage watch.

[greekbum]

Fakes and frankenwatches IMHO will be a bigger problem in the future. I agree with Steve 100% that under a complete inspection and inspected by the right person at the moment there isnt a fake that good but.....IMHO there are NOT that many people out there qualified or have the now how to do this when you need them. The forums with excellent pictures are the best place to get an answer these days.I have been in Europe for a month and at watch shows and shops and was amazed at how many frankenwatches or flat out fakes I saw. Some where VERY good others not so but all sellers claimed 100% real. Its 100% buy the reputable seller time in vintage Rolex from now on IMHO. I would like to add that its more FAKE parts that will be the problem than Whole watches.If you have been in this as long as I have or others you will have to agree that SOME parts are getting very good to the point where you have a few that will scream fake and a few that will scream real. Bezel pearls are a perfect example of this.I will say the recent bakelite bezels are also and so on. Sure there will be 1 or 2 guys that claim they know everything but the truth is the fake parts are getting better every year.These parts are not 100% BUT they will fool people under certain conditions so the buyer must buy with a return policy or from a reputable seller.

[Trev]

I once saw a YMII fake that almost looked slightly worse than a genuine YMII

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by Trev

I once saw a YMII fake that almost looked slightly worse than a genuine YMII

[JEC]

Complete fakes are usually easy to spot... But frankenwatches are a problem for collectors, especially if it uses period-correct parts. Dials are particularly tricky, it's easy to create a red/double red by switching the dial out, and tada, the value is much higher than if it was an original white. That's where in depth knowledge from guys like Steve is needed - they'll know what bezel, crown, case, serial range etc is correct for a certain variation and can spot discrepancies.

I'm sure there are plenty of "genuine" rare rollies that were cobbled from period correct spares. If you spend enough time looking you can build pretty much anything from parts. At that point is it really a Rolex? I'd say it's more of a NOS reproduction.

[lupus]

Thats why the one owner watches are sought after. With pics and all. And even then...

[Route 66]

Originally Posted by stevemulholland3

..there are methods being developed by a couple of people in our field that will enable a collector to take a scraping of their case and without getting into the technical aspects of the how's,they will be able to basically detect even the most aesthetically perfect copies..because no matter how well they make the watch appear,they cannot reproduce Rolex steel from the time period...

This is truly amazing technology!

Almost like DNA testing.

[mike]

Originally Posted by JEC

Complete fakes are usually easy to spot... But frankenwatches are a problem for collectors, especially if it uses period-correct parts. Dials are particularly tricky, it's easy to create a red/double red by switching the dial out, and tada, the value is much higher than if it was an original white. That's where in depth knowledge from guys like Steve is needed - they'll know what bezel, crown, case, serial range etc is correct for a certain variation and can spot discrepancies.

I'm sure there are plenty of "genuine" rare rollies that were cobbled from period correct spares. If you spend enough time looking you can build pretty much anything from parts. At that point is it really a Rolex? I'd say it's more of a NOS reproduction.

I tend to use the term "marriage watch". I agree it is a problem perhaps compounded by the fact the mothership is so tight with information. Crossover is well known with vintage and without some help from the factory one can get into a fuzzy area.

Most collectors will err on the side of safety.

Another thing that hurts is the "instant expert" created by the internet that at times questions a watch without the body of knowledge and years of study interaction brings.

[JEC]

Agreed. I've also run into the opposite problem - so called "experts" denouncing something as fake when it was in fact original. I had to fight on behalf of a client and in tandem with an RSC to prove the authenticity of a rare piece being appraised for insurance purposes. As far as the appraiser was concerned it was a fake, simply because they didn't have any experience with vintage pieces.