My latest court appearance

[Alcan]

In my business (automotive professor and forensic inspection) I have been called on numerous times to provide testimony in vehicle related court cases. Some have been criminal, others civil.

My current case is an interesting one. It involves an '08 Harley Davidson Fat Boy, sugar in the gas tank, and a destroyed engine.

I'm still waiting for a copy of the repair shop's work order, and receipt of the engine so I can dismantle it and assess the cause and scope of the damage.

Should be an interesting court appearance.

[MonBK]

*For some reason, there's a common rumor about sugar and gas that's been around for decades. Supposedly, if you pour sugar into someone's gas tank, you will disable the car. The sugar is supposed to react with the gasoline and turn into a semi-solid, gooey substance that totally clogs up the gas tank, the fuel lines, and so on.
It sounds great, especially if you have a grudge against someone. The problem with this rumor is that it simply isn't true. As it turns out, sugar doesn't dissolve in gasoline. Pouring sand into the gas tank would have about the same effect as pouring in sugar. The sand or sugar might clog up the filter, and that could disable the car, but it's not a sure thing.

[jasonclark]

Whether the sugar turns into a gooey substance or not, I think it running through the fuels lines, even dissolved in the oil, is probably not good. Sounds like a lady might have had it out for her biker boyfriend? Good luck!

[MonBK]

Originally Posted by jasonclark

Whether the sugar turns into a gooey substance or not, I think it running through the fuels lines, even dissolved in the oil, is probably not good. Sounds like a lady might have had it out for her biker boyfriend? Good luck!

Or a jealous husband.

[Alcan]

Originally Posted by MonBK

sugar doesn't dissolve in gasoline. Pouring sand into the gas tank would have about the same effect as pouring in sugar.

We're on the same wavelength. I'm already in posession of a copy of the results of the 1994 experiments conducted by forensic professor John Thornton from Berkeley. He esssentially irradiated sugar, mixed it with gasoline, spun it in a centrifuge, collected the results, and found trace radiation. That's old news, nothing new there. Sugar does not dissolve in gasoline.

Current arguments could include that gasoline here may contain up to 10% methanol. Methanol will dissolve sugar, but at a concentration so low as to be insignificant.

The next argument will probably be that the sugar passed into the engine, caremalized from the heat, then settled into a rock hard sustance when it cooled.

Nope. Fine sugar granules, as in bulk table sugar, average 500 - 800 microns. Harley Davidson OE fuel filters trap particles over 20 microns. That didn't do it.

Finally, it has been suggested that the fuel system ran lean because of the sugar contamination of the fuel filter and injectors ('08 Fat Boys are equipped with Delphi fuel injection), and that caused an overheat which destroyed the engine.

Nope. A lean mixture with resulting overheat would have triggered the ECM into shutting down the rear cylinder to protect the engine. Preliminary discussions indicate that both cylinders were damaged.

I'm waiting for delivery of the engine for teardown and inspection, and an oil analysis.


BTW, view Mythbusters Episode #15, July 27, 2004.

[seand442]

Are you on the plaintiff or defendant side?

[Alcan]

Originally Posted by seand442

Are you on the plaintiff or defendant side?

Defendant's. I've never met anybody involved in this case, including the attorneys who hired me after a telephone conversation(they are a referral). I'm just paid to do research and present my findings.

As with every case I sit on, I have no prior knowledge of either party. If I did, I would disqualify myself.

[seand442]

I have had some interesting experiences with "expert witnesses" hired by attorneys. It seems their data and math would somehow make their results come in well below any possible criminal threshold. I appreciate someone who just takes the appropriate information and data, conducts tests, and reaches logical results without being told beforehand what they need to come up with.

[gt3pilot]

As MonBK stated. Sugar in the gas tank will do little to no damage. May goo up the filter or the in tank fuel pump a little bit, but nothing to to actual motor. It would get burned up in the combustion chamber at those temps and pressures. May make for a sweet smelling car !!! It would probably do some damage if it was poured in the oil, but not the gas tank. I've seen this many times in my days as a LEO. I'm also versed in performance cars and bikes and know the workings well.

Not that their finding are legally conclusive, but the guys from Mythbusters did a whole show on that theory a few years ago and they busted it...


-Scott B.

[Alcan]

Originally Posted by gt3pilot

Not that their finding are legally conclusive, but the guys from Mythbusters did a whole show on that theory a few years ago and they busted it...


-Scott B.

Read the last sentence of Post #5. It includes the episode and original air date.

[TheVTCGuy]

OK, I'm FAR from an expert on engines... but, what I was tought, was that sugar not dissolving in gasoline was just the point. Since it didn't disolve, it would remain a very fine solid, fine enough to penetrate the filter and be pumped into the combustion chamber. The granules would rub the piston and cylinder walls like a sandpaper, eventually causing scaring and compression loss, to the point of ruining the engine.

No?

[LMP]

Amazing what one can learn on this watch forum!

[britincali]

IMO it would block the filter which would cause it to run lean which would melt the pistons which would ruin the motor.


ECUs are not that fast at reacting to lean conditions, my truck is superchaged and when things go lean it gets messy fast, Im on my second motor and probably 8th set of plugs in 3 years. This is on an OBD2 motor with all sensors and smog stuff intact.

If the guy was hammering on the bike when the sugar blocked the filter it would get nasty quick.


Im not a pro but have been a tinkering mechanic for many years.

[swatty]

Sugar in fuel ? we have 10 % ethanol in ours, is that the same

[Rolex116520]

Originally Posted by MonBK

Or a jealous husband.

This seems to come from someone that knows what he's talking about

[Alcan]

Originally Posted by britincali

IMO it would block the filter which would cause it to run lean which would melt the pistons which would ruin the motor.

Now that's the reason I need the engine, to strip it down and find out what damage occured. The lawyer might not like my conclusions.

[Lol-x]

Well sugar isn't abrasive so could it really score the cyclinders I suppose these days there are special linings in some engine cyclinders.

But injectors are very small and I'm not sure the sugar grains could pass through the eye of the injectors....

If the sugar did enter the cyclinder then it might cake up the cyclinders......burnt sugar becomes caramel...then toffee....then maybe strong glue

In terms of the case did the engine in the motorcycle fail? If that was so then there really needs to be a careful examination of the engine.

[Jan Davis]

My brother has a 2005 Harley, and he uses his key to open the gas tank.

[Rolex116520]

Why bother to try and break in the petrol tank . Just remove the spark pugs and funnel some metal shavings or balls from a bearing straight in the cylinders .
I guarantee you a result .

[mailman]

Originally Posted by Jan Davis

My brother has a 2005 Harley, and he uses his key to open the gas tank.

Not all models come with locking gas caps.

Originally Posted by Rolex116520

Why bother to try and break in the petrol tank . Just remove the spark pugs and funnel some metal shavings or balls from a bearing straight in the cylinders .
I guarantee you a result .

My guess would be there's more of a chance to leave fingerprints that way. But you're right. That could cause some serious damage.

[gt3pilot]

Originally Posted by Alcan

Read the last sentence of Post #5. It includes the episode and original air date.

Oops, sorry I missed that in the post. I saw the original when it aired and was wondering if they would come up with the same conclusion that I had years earlier. They are pretty smart guys and they did...... :)



-Scott B.

[HYDROMAROC]

Originally Posted by Alcan

We're on the same wavelength. I'm already in posession of a copy of the results of the 1994 experiments conducted by forensic professor John Thornton from Berkeley. He esssentially irradiated sugar, mixed it with gasoline, spun it in a centrifuge, collected the results, and found trace radiation. That's old news, nothing new there. Sugar does not dissolve in gasoline.

Current arguments could include that gasoline here may contain up to 10% methanol. Methanol will dissolve sugar, but at a concentration so low as to be insignificant.

The next argument will probably be that the sugar passed into the engine, caremalized from the heat, then settled into a rock hard sustance when it cooled.

Nope. Fine sugar granules, as in bulk table sugar, average 500 - 800 microns. Harley Davidson OE fuel filters trap particles over 20 microns. That didn't do it.

Finally, it has been suggested that the fuel system ran lean because of the sugar contamination of the fuel filter and injectors ('08 Fat Boys are equipped with Delphi fuel injection), and that caused an overheat which destroyed the engine.

Nope. A lean mixture with resulting overheat would have triggered the ECM into shutting down the rear cylinder to protect the engine. Preliminary discussions indicate that both cylinders were damaged.

I'm waiting for delivery of the engine for teardown and inspection, and an oil analysis.


BTW, view Mythbusters Episode #15, July 27, 2004.

What about any residual water in the tank or gas from the pump to begin with?

[Alcan]

Originally Posted by HYDROMAROC

What about any residual water in the tank or gas from the pump to begin with?

Anything is possible (almost), which is why I need the engine for inspection. I haven't yet discounted the ethanol content of the fuel, which can be up to 10% for regular grade here but rarely exceeds 5% in premium.

[MonBK]

Are you permitted to elaborate on the case Al?

For instance, who claims the damage is by sugar and not something else?

[Alcan]

Originally Posted by MonBK

Are you permitted to elaborate on the case Al?

For instance, who claims the damage is by sugar and not something else?

Yep, no gag. The defendant pleaded guilty to vandalizing someone else's bike by putting sugar in the tank. Not sure what the sentence was. The owner's insurance company is now after him in civil court for the cost of the engine & labour. At the end of the day, it just might turn out that the sugar was a contributing factor. I'll have to peel the engine down to find out.

All things considered, he's probably lucky that he's able to make an appearance. I understand that HD owners tend to get a bit miffed when their rides are vandalized.

[theloxmyth]

Isn't there a LOCK on/in the gas cap?!

Some have them and some don't.

(Thinking outside the "circle.")

[Tools]

It should be interesting to know the results and the extent of the "damage" (rings, cylinders, pistons or bearings) and it's final cause.

It could also be ineresting to know if the owner was using any octane boosters or other additives in his fuel as some tend to do..

Keep us updated......... and don't forget the photos......

[MonBK]

Originally Posted by Tools

It should be interesting to know the results and the extent of the "damage" (rings, cylinders, pistons or bearings) and it's final cause.

It could also be ineresting to know if the owner was using any octane boosters or other additives in his fuel as some tend to do..

Keep us updated......... and don't forget the photos......

I don't know any HD rider that doesn't use octane booster.

[Kapture1]

You need the key in order to open the gas tank, so that leads me to believe that either the owner did this (there is no self respecting Harley owner that could ever bring themselves to do this to their own bike) or it was done while at service. I would cry, thats all I really know for sure.

[East Bay Rider]

This is exciting. I'm looking forward to hearing about the teardown.