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Stevro · 14 March 2012, 04:42 AM

Hi all,

I found this on ebay. It doesn't look like any Rolex I've ever seen. Is it real?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mens-MINTY...item53ebee4994

PS. This is my first post. I'm a former GMT1 and Submariner wearer. Taking delivery of a Date 15000 this week.

Steven

TakesALickin · 14 March 2012, 02:58 PM

Steve, here's a copy of the movement pic from the auction you linked, placed next to a picture of a Russian Molnija pocket watch movement I found on the web. Anything look familiar?

The watch in that auction is wayyyyyy too squeaky clean to be from the 1940s.

Mark020 · 14 March 2012, 06:45 PM

Interesting dial 8)

Stevro · 14 March 2012, 09:00 PM

Thanks Jeff.That movement looks identical! Russian movement and the dealer's from the Ukraine!?

The bid is at £1000 now. That's a lot of money if it's not real. I wasn't planning to bid, just curious.

nowzen · 14 March 2012, 11:30 PM

Suggest you check out this thread (and watch)...

http://forums.watchuseek.com/f10/kom...-a-610862.html

Keeperoftime · 14 March 2012, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stevro

Hi all,

I found this on ebay. It doesn't look like any Rolex I've ever seen. Is it real?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mens-MINTY...item53ebee4994

PS. This is my first post. I'm a former GMT1 and Submariner wearer. Taking delivery of a Date 15000 this week.

Steven

\

Fake. Rolex used Cortebert in their pocket watches and watches for Panerai. I don't know what the heck the watch is being auctioned. It is not kosher.

oceandweller · 15 March 2012, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stevro

Hi all,

I found this on ebay. It doesn't look like any Rolex I've ever seen. Is it real?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mens-MINTY...item53ebee4994

PS. This is my first post. I'm a former GMT1 and Submariner wearer. Taking delivery of a Date 15000 this week.

Steven

Generally, from this particular and surrounding countries, one can see strange vintage Rolex and Patek Philippe watches, etc being listed.

Yet people bid and buy them. Strange country, strange watches and also, apparently strange buyers, who think they have got something extremely rare, unseen before.

whiskyguy · 15 March 2012, 01:04 AM

It is a Real Rolex pocket watch movement, but,
If you read the Ebay listing carefully it describes both the dial and case as custom made
Eastern Europe has a thriving business recasing these old high grade movemts

I kinda like them and will probably pick one up eventually

Stevro · 15 March 2012, 01:29 AM

Thanks for the technical input Jeremy.

Bizarre! He has a 100% feedback rating. Maybe no-one finds out the truth until they go for a service after a few years.

When my Date 15000 arrives it's going straight to be checked inside and out as a matter of course.

Jagatai · 15 March 2012, 01:33 AM

Weird

Stevro · 15 March 2012, 01:41 AM

A Whiskyguy. You've thrown a spanner in the works! Your post appeared while I was typing my last reply. I still won't be bidding, but definitely an interesting item for many reasons!

Keeperoftime · 15 March 2012, 01:42 AM

I beg the differ. The movement does not appear to be a "True" Cortebert but the Russian Molnija version.

Below is my Cortebert 616.

P.S video file was too glitchy.
I bought this movement with a "Panerai 3646-Homage style dial and case"

Cheers.

The Panerai 3646 is a grail for me. I don't believe I will ever pay the 100K price for one so, I found a "Project-homage" watch. The seller CLEARLY stated it was such, however.

Stevro · 15 March 2012, 06:51 AM

Hi Nowzen. Interesting and enlightening link. I couldn't read it earlier as I was at work.

And thanks too, Keeperoftime.

It's still got 5 days to go, so the price could shoot up dramatically!

whiskyguy · 15 March 2012, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keeperoftime

I beg the differ. The movement does not appear to be a "True" Cortebert but the Russian Molnija version.

Below is my Cortebert 616.

P.S video file was too glitchy.
I bought this movement with a "Panerai 3646-Homage style dial and case"

Cheers.

The Panerai 3646 is a grail for me. I don't believe I will ever pay the 100K price for one so, I found a "Project-homage" watch. The seller CLEARLY stated it was such, however.

About the watch in question...

While I am by no means an expert on Rolex Pocket Watches I do dabble in vintage military pieces.

Rolex did use cortebert movements for a time

(Pic Konrad Knirim)

Notice the placement of the Rolex engraving and the cutout above and to the right of the signature. Very similar to the watch in question.

Again I am not trying to argue i just want to learn...

What do you see that leads you to believe it is a Molnija copy?

Keeperoftime · 15 March 2012, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whiskyguy

About the watch in question...

While I am by no means an expert on Rolex Pocket Watches I do dabble in vintage military pieces.

Rolex did use cortebert movements for a time

(Pic Konrad Knirim)

Notice the placement of the Rolex engraving and the cutout above and to the right of the signature. Very similar to the watch in question.

Again I am not trying to argue i just want to learn...

What do you see that leads you to believe it is a Molnija copy?

Hey Bud, the quality on the engraving looked questionable at first. I'm now on my computer with a higher resolution, it may be a Rolex "Cortebert" movement but not 100% sure. Parts seem consistent while others look wrong.

In Short.. This watch is not proper IMHO.

TakesALickin · 15 March 2012, 08:21 AM

I suppose it could be a legitimate Rolex movement, based on the old Cortebert design, but it's entirely possible that some clever Slav has decided to manufacture a couple of replacement plates (with Rolex markings) to fit onto old Molnija movements too. For what that watch will eventually sell for, it's definitely worth their effort.

I just saw a squeaky clean new (and presumably Chinese) case with a display back, an unsigned crown, and sporting a movement that I recognized as a Molnija by design and figured that whatever it was, what it definitely was not was a genuine vintage Rolex pocket watch. If someone wants to spend money on it, knowing full well what it is (and is not), then that's their prerogative. Just remember that you can buy essentially the same watch with Molnija markings for about $50 to $100.

GradyPhilpott · 15 March 2012, 08:35 AM

Authentic movement or not, the commentary here suggests that this is a trademark infringement by virtue of the use of the name Rolex on the dial.

So, is it legal?

whiskyguy · 15 March 2012, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GradyPhilpott

Authentic movement or not, the commentary here suggests that this is a trademark infringement by virtue of the use of the name Rolex on the dial.

So, is it legal?

To that i would say most certainly a violation

Cheers

Stevro · 15 March 2012, 09:33 AM

As a 'vintage' novice I didn't think Rolex would mix Roman, Arabic and batons on a dial. Is the dial based on anything anyone here has even seen? They say the dial "has been professionally updated." implying it is based on an existing dial.

It's been a real education so far. Thanks to all.

slcbbrown · 15 March 2012, 09:49 AM

This outfit lists a lot of reworked pocket watches. I can't tell you much about the authenticity, but it's obviously a pocket watch in a custom case, IMO.

TakesALickin · 15 March 2012, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whiskyguy

To that i would say most certainly a violation

Cheers

Most definitely - but in that part of the world they don't much care.

TakesALickin · 15 March 2012, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stevro

As a 'vintage' novice I didn't think Rolex would mix Roman, Arabic and batons on a dial. Is the dial based on anything anyone here has even seen? They say the dial "has been professionally updated." implying it is based on an existing dial.

It's been a real education so far. Thanks to all.

It's just a "California" dial. Pretty common, and I think I had a copy of Cooksey-Shugart that showed an original iteration of that dial design on a Rolex from the 40s. Most often it was done by re-dialers and you can find a lot of Explorer cases with California dials on Ebay. Quite a few watch companies have used that layout through the years.

Stevro · 15 March 2012, 11:03 AM

Cheers Jeff. I just googled 'Rolex California dial' and saw some examples of the mix of Roman, Arabic etc. Very interesting, although I don't like the mix myself.

This is from a well-respected UK dealer, but without the seconds dial... http://www.sonningvintagewatches.com...01-400x300.jpg

Apologies for the links. I haven't mastered uploading images... yet.

Stevro · 15 March 2012, 11:06 AM

Better images and description here http://www.sonningvintagewatches.com...lifornia-dial/

Keeperoftime · 15 March 2012, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stevro

Better images and description here http://www.sonningvintagewatches.com...lifornia-dial/

more info:

http://theswissmonster.blogspot.com/...nia-dials.html

Rikki · 15 March 2012, 12:15 PM

If you look closely at the movements there are distinct differences the click on the Rolex is smaller and the center wheel is jeweled while the Russian version has a brass bushing. The click on the Russian watch is a half moon style the ratchet wheel is different as well as the crown wheel. Just saying Rikki

TakesALickin · 15 March 2012, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stevro

Cheers Jeff. I just googled 'Rolex California dial' and saw some examples of the mix of Roman, Arabic etc. Very interesting, although I don't like the mix myself.

This is from a well-respected UK dealer, but without the seconds dial... http://www.sonningvintagewatches.com...01-400x300.jpg

Apologies for the links. I haven't mastered uploading images... yet.

Yep, Steve, that's a good example and Jeremy's link provides the full history, per James Dowling. I've always liked the design in the smaller 34mm cases, but I've never pursued buying one because I thought determining the value on those redials would be difficult.

TakesALickin · 15 March 2012, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stevro

Better images and description here http://www.sonningvintagewatches.com...lifornia-dial/

Not to derail the thread, but man I wish I'd never followed that link. The seller is pricing all his vintage Seamasters at $2000 to $2500. I let this one go about four years ago for $300, which was about what I had in it. Talk about shortchanging yourself...

kyle L · 15 March 2012, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TakesALickin

Not to derail the thread, but man I wish I'd never followed that link. The seller is pricing all his vintage Seamasters at $2000 to $2500. I let this one go about four years ago for $300, which was about what I had in it. Talk about shortchanging yourself...

Prices are way off in my opinion... for the price of one of their overpolished redone Omegas you could get 5 nice original examples...

TakesALickin · 15 March 2012, 01:19 PM

True - asking and getting are two very different things! :)

14 March 2012, 04:42 AM	#1
Stevro "TRF" Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Real Name: Steven Location: London Watch: 1963 Gilt 5513 Posts: 53	Is this really a vintage Rolex? Hi all, I found this on ebay. It doesn't look like any Rolex I've ever seen. Is it real? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mens-MINTY...item53ebee4994 PS. This is my first post. I'm a former GMT1 and Submariner wearer. Taking delivery of a Date 15000 this week. Steven

14 March 2012, 02:58 PM	#2
TakesALickin "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Real Name: Jeff Location: Indianapolis Watch: Seiko SBDX001 Posts: 256	Steve, here's a copy of the movement pic from the auction you linked, placed next to a picture of a Russian Molnija pocket watch movement I found on the web. Anything look familiar? The watch in that auction is wayyyyyy too squeaky clean to be from the 1940s. Attached Images

14 March 2012, 11:30 PM	#5
nowzen "TRF" Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 741	Suggest you check out this thread (and watch)... http://forums.watchuseek.com/f10/kom...-a-610862.html __________________ *Card Carrying Member of the Global Association of Retro-Grouch-Curmudgeons*

15 March 2012, 01:42 AM	#12
Keeperoftime "TRF" Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Real Name: Jeremy Location: Louisiana Watch: Rolex Posts: 2,732	I beg the differ. The movement does not appear to be a "True" Cortebert but the Russian Molnija version. Below is my Cortebert 616. P.S video file was too glitchy. I bought this movement with a "Panerai 3646-Homage style dial and case" Cheers. The Panerai 3646 is a grail for me. I don't believe I will ever pay the 100K price for one so, I found a "Project-homage" watch. The seller CLEARLY stated it was such, however. __________________ As a man is, so he sees. As the eye is formed, such are its powers. William Blake

15 March 2012, 08:35 AM	#17
GradyPhilpott 2024 SubLV41 Pledge Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: New Mexico Watch: Seiko #SRK047 Posts: 34,460	Authentic movement or not, the commentary here suggests that this is a trademark infringement by virtue of the use of the name Rolex on the dial. So, is it legal? __________________ JJ Inaugural TRF $50 Watch Challenge Winner

14 March 2012, 06:45 PM	#3
Mark020 "TRF" Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 2,133	Interesting dial 8)

14 March 2012, 09:00 PM	#4
Stevro "TRF" Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Real Name: Steven Location: London Watch: 1963 Gilt 5513 Posts: 53	Thanks Jeff.That movement looks identical! Russian movement and the dealer's from the Ukraine!? The bid is at £1000 now. That's a lot of money if it's not real. I wasn't planning to bid, just curious.

15 March 2012, 01:04 AM	#8
whiskyguy "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 666	It is a Real Rolex pocket watch movement, but, If you read the Ebay listing carefully it describes both the dial and case as custom made Eastern Europe has a thriving business recasing these old high grade movemts I kinda like them and will probably pick one up eventually

15 March 2012, 01:29 AM	#9
Stevro "TRF" Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Real Name: Steven Location: London Watch: 1963 Gilt 5513 Posts: 53	Thanks for the technical input Jeremy. Bizarre! He has a 100% feedback rating. Maybe no-one finds out the truth until they go for a service after a few years. When my Date 15000 arrives it's going straight to be checked inside and out as a matter of course.

15 March 2012, 01:33 AM	#10
Jagatai "TRF" Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Real Name: Philip Location: NY Posts: 851	Weird

15 March 2012, 01:41 AM	#11
Stevro "TRF" Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Real Name: Steven Location: London Watch: 1963 Gilt 5513 Posts: 53	A Whiskyguy. You've thrown a spanner in the works! Your post appeared while I was typing my last reply. I still won't be bidding, but definitely an interesting item for many reasons!

15 March 2012, 06:51 AM	#13
Stevro "TRF" Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Real Name: Steven Location: London Watch: 1963 Gilt 5513 Posts: 53	Hi Nowzen. Interesting and enlightening link. I couldn't read it earlier as I was at work. And thanks too, Keeperoftime. It's still got 5 days to go, so the price could shoot up dramatically!

15 March 2012, 08:21 AM	#16
TakesALickin "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Real Name: Jeff Location: Indianapolis Watch: Seiko SBDX001 Posts: 256	I suppose it could be a legitimate Rolex movement, based on the old Cortebert design, but it's entirely possible that some clever Slav has decided to manufacture a couple of replacement plates (with Rolex markings) to fit onto old Molnija movements too. For what that watch will eventually sell for, it's definitely worth their effort. I just saw a squeaky clean new (and presumably Chinese) case with a display back, an unsigned crown, and sporting a movement that I recognized as a Molnija by design and figured that whatever it was, what it definitely was not was a genuine vintage Rolex pocket watch. If someone wants to spend money on it, knowing full well what it is (and is not), then that's their prerogative. Just remember that you can buy essentially the same watch with Molnija markings for about $50 to $100.

15 March 2012, 09:33 AM	#19
Stevro "TRF" Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Real Name: Steven Location: London Watch: 1963 Gilt 5513 Posts: 53	As a 'vintage' novice I didn't think Rolex would mix Roman, Arabic and batons on a dial. Is the dial based on anything anyone here has even seen? They say the dial "has been professionally updated." implying it is based on an existing dial. It's been a real education so far. Thanks to all.

15 March 2012, 09:49 AM	#20
slcbbrown "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2009 Real Name: steve Location: dallas area Watch: 50's TT t-bird Posts: 3,689	This outfit lists a lot of reworked pocket watches. I can't tell you much about the authenticity, but it's obviously a pocket watch in a custom case, IMO.

15 March 2012, 11:03 AM	#23
Stevro "TRF" Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Real Name: Steven Location: London Watch: 1963 Gilt 5513 Posts: 53	Cheers Jeff. I just googled 'Rolex California dial' and saw some examples of the mix of Roman, Arabic etc. Very interesting, although I don't like the mix myself. This is from a well-respected UK dealer, but without the seconds dial... http://www.sonningvintagewatches.com...01-400x300.jpg Apologies for the links. I haven't mastered uploading images... yet.

15 March 2012, 11:06 AM	#24
Stevro "TRF" Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Real Name: Steven Location: London Watch: 1963 Gilt 5513 Posts: 53	Better images and description here http://www.sonningvintagewatches.com...lifornia-dial/

15 March 2012, 12:15 PM	#26
Rikki TechXpert Join Date: Jun 2009 Real Name: Rik Dietel Location: Seminole Fla Watch: 5512 s/s Sub Posts: 1,818	If you look closely at the movements there are distinct differences the click on the Rolex is smaller and the center wheel is jeweled while the Russian version has a brass bushing. The click on the Russian watch is a half moon style the ratchet wheel is different as well as the crown wheel. Just saying Rikki __________________ Century 21 Certified watchmaker Omega Service Provider Trained Omega OWME Certified. Rolex Parts Account Holder.

15 March 2012, 01:19 PM	#30
TakesALickin "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Real Name: Jeff Location: Indianapolis Watch: Seiko SBDX001 Posts: 256	True - asking and getting are two very different things! :) __________________ Living on a ledge, just past the edge...

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