how much is too much amplitude?

[knoffie]

I have read that the "ideal " amplitude on a Rolex( or any automatic watch) is around 290-310 degrees. What is the maximum? Would a watch reading 323 degrees of amplitude still function accurately? Has anyon eheard of a watch with that much?/
Knoffie

[padi56]

Originally Posted by knoffie

I have read that the "ideal " amplitude on a Rolex( or any automatic watch) is around 290-310 degrees. What is the maximum? Would a watch reading 323 degrees of amplitude still function accurately? Has anyon eheard of a watch with that much?/
Knoffie

As far as amplitude goes watch movement has to be fully wound to start with then start test dial down first you just cannot measure in one position.Amplitude is the degree of rotation from the centre point of beat rate till the balance is returned by the hairspring. A good running watch will have an average amplitude of 270 to around 310 at full wind, and around 220 to 260 at half wind.But dont read to much into a single amplitude reading say tested in one position and by whatever machine its tested on.As regulation is a very very simple task for any good watchmaker,its accomplished by turning the Microstella adjustment screws and nuts.The two smaller Microstella screws make adjustments of one second for each turn, and the larger Microstella, two seconds for one turn, but rate adjustment on the balance wheel its around a max of 30-50 seconds either way.The amplitude could also be effected by the lubrication on the pallet stones myself would not worry over small differences in amplitude its easily rectified.

[azguy]

Maybe this should be in the tech section so Rikki can see it

[Lt.Arclight]

One factor that must be accounted for is the "lift angle" of the escapement. On my Witschi Watchmatic its soemthing you must manually key in. IIRC, the 3130,3132,3185 is 54 degrees. Changing that variable WILL change the amplitude the machine registers.

Too much amplitude is only bad if the escapement "knocks the banking". Adjusting the microstella screws won't resolve that issue. On a self winding watch the mainstring has a bridle that actually acts like a clutch inside the spring barrel. Depending on what type of material the barrel is made from will dictate the type of lubricant used.(ie. Moebius 8212,8213,8217)The lubricant will dictate how much "braking" the bridle has. Basically it will keep the mainspring at the correct tension. If the bridle doesn't slip like it should it will drive the escapement at a much higher force than it was designed. Excessive amplitude will result. The watch machine will hear this and indicate if there is knocking present.

There has been an improvement over the years of lubricants used on the pallet jewels ie. Moebius 9415/2 and Moebius 941/2. All movements have factory "oil charts" and they are to be followed. Not all lubes are created equal.

Escapements are the heart of the watch. A fascinating subject. Regulating a fine movement is a time consuming job and isn't really all that simple. The wearer's habits can change the final result. padi56 is absolutely correct- a single amplitude reading isn't something to be concerned about. The fact that a mechanical watch is SO accurate for SO LONG a period of time is truly amazing and the result of alot of trial,error and engineering. Knoffie you raise a truly thought provoking question that has literally been the subject of entire BOOKS!

For those interested, here is a link to Witschi that has a wealth of info concerning this subject:http://www.witschi.com/e/home/

[knoffie]

Thank you guys. I appreciate your knowledge and wisdom. Now I can sit down relax and have a cup of tea!!
Knoffie

[Roly Poly]

Anyone know if low amplitude can cause a watch to stop, my 2012 Sub Mariner stopped and then would start.. maybe go a day and a half and start again and then stop again.......It is with a Rolex service center where I was told the watch had low amplitude...but that everything else looks ok. Any advice?? Much thanks in advance.

Roly poly

[Andad]

Originally Posted by Lt.Arclight

One factor that must be accounted for is the "lift angle" of the escapement. On my Witschi Watchmatic its soemthing you must manually key in. IIRC, the 3130,3132,3185 is 54 degrees. Changing that variable WILL change the amplitude the machine registers.

Too much amplitude is only bad if the escapement "knocks the banking". Adjusting the microstella screws won't resolve that issue. On a self winding watch the mainstring has a bridle that actually acts like a clutch inside the spring barrel. Depending on what type of material the barrel is made from will dictate the type of lubricant used.(ie. Moebius 8212,8213,8217)The lubricant will dictate how much "braking" the bridle has. Basically it will keep the mainspring at the correct tension. If the bridle doesn't slip like it should it will drive the escapement at a much higher force than it was designed. Excessive amplitude will result. The watch machine will hear this and indicate if there is knocking present.

There has been an improvement over the years of lubricants used on the pallet jewels ie. Moebius 9415/2 and Moebius 941/2. All movements have factory "oil charts" and they are to be followed. Not all lubes are created equal.

Escapements are the heart of the watch. A fascinating subject. Regulating a fine movement is a time consuming job and isn't really all that simple. The wearer's habits can change the final result. padi56 is absolutely correct- a single amplitude reading isn't something to be concerned about. The fact that a mechanical watch is SO accurate for SO LONG a period of time is truly amazing and the result of alot of trial,error and engineering. Knoffie you raise a truly thought provoking question that has literally been the subject of entire BOOKS!

For those interested, here is a link to Witschi that has a wealth of info concerning this subject:http://www.witschi.com/e/home/

Can you explain in more detail how the 'bridle' keeps the mainspring at the 'correct' tension.
My understanding is the mainspring is wound until it 'slips' at full tension and then winds down from there if not wound or worn. I can't see how it can be kept at a 'correct' constant tension.
Have been w..wr.wro..mistaken all these years about how a mainspring works?

I thought the 'slip' function was to prevent stripping gears or damaging the mainspring while winding.

[Rikki]

As the mainspring slips it loses about 8 to 12% of it's total power which is nominal. Within minutes of normal wearing it goes to full power and slips again this goes on 100's of times a day. The slip function obviously has to be there for an automatic watch because the gear reduction of the auto device would break a mainspring as soon as it reached full potential. Because of the way modern watches are geared and constructed it uses the mainspring power to it's best potential. Now back in the day of Fusee pocket watches when the power of a mainspring was inconsistent the gear that the chain wound up on was conical to even out power distribution small at the top of the wind and bigger at the bottom when the mainspring was ebbing in power. So the precision of modern day mainsprings allows for very even distribution of power over the entire range of power another reason that modern watches can hold and keep more accurate time over longer run times. Rikki

[kilyung]

[JB105]

Hello all, new to forum but have been reading through threads and have learned a lot. Appreciate the thoughtful comments and I'm writing seeking advice.

Recently bought new explorer I 214270 from AD couple weeks ago. Noticed it was 4 minutes fast after 4 days of wearing.

I let it run completely down, then gave 40 manual winds and started keeping log (time measured against time.gov) since then. Gains just over 1 minute per day. Sometimes, the escapement mechanism will have a galloping sound lasting a several seconds, which I've come to learn may be overbanking possibly because of elevated amplitude?

Took it to AD yesterday and he put it on timegrapher. Amplitude reportedly was ~329 degrees dial up (do not recall the beat error). AD said it was upper limit of normal but all readings within acceptable limits. With activity, considered it was possible I was getting some knocking. The suggestion was to wait it out a few more weeks, and that servicing would mean sending into RSC-not something he could do in the shop if I understood correctly.

AD was helpful and I trust him, but I'm still wondering whether I could be damaging the movement with overbanking? Would waiting a few more weeks likely change time-keeping observations thus far? The more I read, the more it sounds like I may have to send to RSC. Disheartened that I may have to send it in when brand new. Grateful for any advice.

Originally Posted by Rikki

As the mainspring slips it loses about 8 to 12% of it's total power which is nominal. Within minutes of normal wearing it goes to full power and slips again this goes on 100's of times a day. The slip function obviously has to be there for an automatic watch because the gear reduction of the auto device would break a mainspring as soon as it reached full potential. Because of the way modern watches are geared and constructed it uses the mainspring power to it's best potential. Now back in the day of Fusee pocket watches when the power of a mainspring was inconsistent the gear that the chain wound up on was conical to even out power distribution small at the top of the wind and bigger at the bottom when the mainspring was ebbing in power. So the precision of modern day mainsprings allows for very even distribution of power over the entire range of power another reason that modern watches can hold and keep more accurate time over longer run times. Rikki

[AConnolly]

How did you end up resolving this? I'm having a nearly identical experience right now with a new OP ref 116000.

Cheers,
Andrew

Originally Posted by JB105

Hello all, new to forum but have been reading through threads and have learned a lot. Appreciate the thoughtful comments and I'm writing seeking advice.

Recently bought new explorer I 214270 from AD couple weeks ago. Noticed it was 4 minutes fast after 4 days of wearing.

I let it run completely down, then gave 40 manual winds and started keeping log (time measured against time.gov) since then. Gains just over 1 minute per day. Sometimes, the escapement mechanism will have a galloping sound lasting a several seconds, which I've come to learn may be overbanking possibly because of elevated amplitude?

Took it to AD yesterday and he put it on timegrapher. Amplitude reportedly was ~329 degrees dial up (do not recall the beat error). AD said it was upper limit of normal but all readings within acceptable limits. With activity, considered it was possible I was getting some knocking. The suggestion was to wait it out a few more weeks, and that servicing would mean sending into RSC-not something he could do in the shop if I understood correctly.

AD was helpful and I trust him, but I'm still wondering whether I could be damaging the movement with overbanking? Would waiting a few more weeks likely change time-keeping observations thus far? The more I read, the more it sounds like I may have to send to RSC. Disheartened that I may have to send it in when brand new. Grateful for any advice.

[JB105]

Originally Posted by JB105

Hello all, new to forum but have been reading through threads and have learned a lot. Appreciate the thoughtful comments and I'm writing seeking advice.

Recently bought new explorer I 214270 from AD couple weeks ago. Noticed it was 4 minutes fast after 4 days of wearing.

I let it run completely down, then gave 40 manual winds and started keeping log (time measured against time.gov) since then. Gains just over 1 minute per day. Sometimes, the escapement mechanism will have a galloping sound lasting a several seconds, which I've come to learn may be overbanking possibly because of elevated amplitude?

Took it to AD yesterday and he put it on timegrapher. Amplitude reportedly was ~329 degrees dial up (do not recall the beat error). AD said it was upper limit of normal but all readings within acceptable limits. With activity, considered it was possible I was getting some knocking. The suggestion was to wait it out a few more weeks, and that servicing would mean sending into RSC-not something he could do in the shop if I understood correctly.

AD was helpful and I trust him, but I'm still wondering whether I could be damaging the movement with overbanking? Would waiting a few more weeks likely change time-keeping observations thus far? The more I read, the more it sounds like I may have to send to RSC. Disheartened that I may have to send it in when brand new. Grateful for any advice.

In case helpful to others, the 3132 movement was found to be overbanking when put on timegrapher and that was leading to excessive daily time gain. It was a mechanical issue. Initial proposed solution by AD was to send it to Rolex to have it repaired but given it was brand new, I was not keen on doing that and eventually the watch was replaced. The replacement loses 1 second per day without deviation.

[triumphrox]

Originally Posted by JB105

In case helpful to others, the 3132 movement was found to be overbanking when put on timegrapher and that was leading to excessive daily time gain. It was a mechanical issue. Initial proposed solution by AD was to send it to Rolex to have it repaired but given it was brand new, I was not keen on doing that and eventually the watch was replaced. The replacement loses 1 second per day without deviation.

I like happy endings.