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bscepter · 9 May 2013, 01:52 AM

There's a 16610LV for sale on TRF that is going for $8,599, which seems quite high to me (i know the LVs command a premium over the LNs, but you usually see them in the $6-7k range). one of its selling points, apparently, is that it has a "flat 4." can anyone explain this to me?

btw, i'm not trying to call out the seller or anything; i'm genuinely curious as to why this particular LV is worth more than some of the others i've seen for sale here.

ryanbush · 9 May 2013, 01:53 AM

I was wondering the samething, glad you asked!

bscepter · 9 May 2013, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryanbush

I was wondering the samething, glad you asked!

it's an absolutely gorgeous watch. when i bought my LN, i had a chance to buy an LV new at the same price. i should have done it. i didn't because i thought that having a green bezel would get old after a while. lol! and as much as i love my sub, i've regretted not getting the LV ever since.

Tools · 9 May 2013, 02:01 AM

A watch will sell for whatever the market will bear.. The Internet has resulted in increases in prices for almost every product since it brings more people into contact with the product..

Flat 4's are simply the font of the 4 on the bezel.. For decades Rolex used a 4 that was flat on top and also had a flat (as opposed to coming to a point) on the inside of the 4. These are "flat 4's". Because Rolex changed their font slightly in later years, only the first year or so of the LV had these older style fonts..

Personally, it's hardly a good reason to pay a premium for a watch..

Flat 4's:

[/URL]

SWISSAHOLICS · 9 May 2013, 02:05 AM

It's ridiculous to pay such high prices for a LV just because of Flat 4 font.

Micha · 9 May 2013, 02:10 AM

the flat 4 on that bezel would indicate the Mark 1 dial, the first and by some considered to be the ONLY TRUE Anniversary Edition of the LV, since it was introduced in 2003, exactly 50 years after the first Sub was introduced. This is why collectors want THAT year, Y or early F series

michel33 · 9 May 2013, 02:21 AM

The LV 16610 was not a limited edition, much to the annoyance of collectors/sellers....

Thus, they decided arbitrarily the 2003 LV should be the "only true anniversary edition".... NOT ROLEX....
So, imho, this is insane to pay such a premium and this is a foolish internet hype....

Moreover, every black sub of the same era also features a flat four on its bezel....

But to each their own....

Roller07 · 9 May 2013, 02:24 AM

Personally, it's hardly a good reason to pay a premium for a watch..

Yep.

wantonebad · 9 May 2013, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by michel33

The LV 16610 was not a limited edition, much to the annoyance of collectors/sellers....

Thus, they decided arbitrarily the 2003 LV should be the "only true anniversary edition".... NOT ROLEX....
So, imho, this is insane to pay such a premium and this is a foolish internet hype....

Moreover, every black sub of the same era also features a flat four on its bezel....

But to each their own....

1000% Agree!

Cru Jones · 9 May 2013, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micha

the flat 4 on that bezel would indicate the Mark 1 dial, the first and by some considered to be the ONLY TRUE Anniversary Edition of the LV, since it was introduced in 2003, exactly 50 years after the first Sub was introduced. This is why collectors want THAT year, Y or early F series

Quote:

Originally Posted by michel33

The LV 16610 was not a limited edition, much to the annoyance of collectors/sellers....

Thus, they decided arbitrarily the 2003 LV should be the "only true anniversary edition".... NOT ROLEX....
So, imho, this is insane to pay such a premium and this is a foolish internet hype....

Moreover, every black sub of the same era also features a flat four on its bezel....

But to each their own....

Two very contrasting points of view, back to back in the same thread.

datejust24 · 9 May 2013, 02:29 AM

may be a dumb question but...on my 14060M there is an "M" after the 14060 when I take the band off...sooo is there an LV after the 16610?

Passionata · 9 May 2013, 02:32 AM

OP ,it s a Mark 1 serial watch ,a late Y and early F serials are the most wanted among collectors .

Best
George

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

TonyD · 9 May 2013, 02:34 AM

Yeah but ask me in 20 years if this ever becomes the red sub of the future. You always see notes about open 6/9 date wheels being coveted.

You never know.

Tools · 9 May 2013, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyD

Yeah but ask me in 20 years if this ever becomes the red sub of the future. You always see notes about open 6/9 date wheels being coveted.

You never know.

I think that this is key.. We're talking about a watch that is only 10 years old and not short in supply.. they're all over..

True "collectors" don't really have this model on their radar, especially not at an inflated price.. Those (collectors) that have bet it will become a superstar, already have theirs - and got them early, cheap.

We won't really know if this watch has legs for another decade or two..

KBM · 9 May 2013, 02:44 AM

Amazing how there is always a need to try to make a specific watch more exclusive. I truly never understood the concept of the pleasure in a limited edition. If a watch is great, I would like as many people as possible to have access to it, enjoy it and be happy with their good fortune in being able to own a luxury timepiece. It seems petty to me to want to be among a few with the opportunity to wear a specific watch, because "only x units were produced".

bscepter · 9 May 2013, 03:30 AM

interesting responses. very informative. again, i wasn't trying to call out a seller in any way; i was just curious.

and now i know... which is why i visit TRF.

Frogman4me · 9 May 2013, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micha

the flat 4 on that bezel would indicate the Mark 1 dial, the first and by some considered to be the ONLY TRUE Anniversary Edition of the LV, since it was introduced in 2003, exactly 50 years after the first Sub was introduced. This is why collectors want THAT year, Y or early F series

Exactly

Sherwooddavid · 9 May 2013, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bscepter

interesting responses. very informative. again, i wasn't trying to call out a seller in any way; i was just curious.

and now i know... which is why i visit TRF.

padi56 · 9 May 2013, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tools

A watch will sell for whatever the market will bear.. The Internet has resulted in increases in prices for almost every product since it brings more people into contact with the product..

Flat 4's are simply the font of the 4 on the bezel.. For decades Rolex used a 4 that was flat on top and also had a flat (as opposed to coming to a point) on the inside of the 4. These are "flat 4's". Because Rolex changed their font slightly in later years, only the first year or so of the LV had these older style fonts..

Personally, it's hardly a good reason to pay a premium for a watch..

Flat 4's:

Have to agree Larry first its was the mistake dial or stick dial GMT11 many got the fingers burned on that one, now its the flat four font. The Internet is a wonderful place for Rolex hype and if you are fool enough to buy hype.All the aluminum inserts from the same time frame had flat four fonts why no interest with them like say on SD.

JP Chestnut · 9 May 2013, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bscepter

There's a 16610LV for sale on TRF that is going for $8,599, which seems quite high to me (i know the LVs command a premium over the LNs, but you usually see them in the $6-7k range). one of its selling points, apparently, is that it has a "flat 4." can anyone explain this to me?

btw, i'm not trying to call out the seller or anything; i'm genuinely curious as to why this particular LV is worth more than some of the others i've seen for sale here.

It's an expensive watch for sure (over priced IMO). However, flat 4 or not, there aren't too many F serial LVs floating around with open papers. If you want your name on the papers, I guess you have to be willing to pay for it!

On edit: I looked farther down the thread. Likely polish and named dated paper!

JP Chestnut · 9 May 2013, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by padi56

Have to agree Larry first its was the mistake dial or stick dial GMT11 many got the fingers burned on that one, now its the flat four font. The Internet is a wonderful place for Rolex hype and if you are fool enough to buy hype.All the aluminum inserts from the same time frame had flat four fonts why no interest with them like say on SD.

Check out the ad for the SD flat 4 insert on the accessories forum...

aeon888 · 9 May 2013, 04:23 AM

That's because there is always a market for those so-called "collectibles". It all depends if there is a willing buyer or a "collector" that believes that the high premium price is equal to the value of the watch.

The same holds true for art collectors, knife collectors, gun collectors etc.

In fact, some rich guy just paid more than 2 million dollars for a single piece of china bowl this year. Yeah, nothing fancy, just a plain old china bowl from some old Chinese dynasty. No flat 4's, gold dials nor diamond-encrusted bezels or vintage Rolex that Moses wore to divide the Red Sea here. But he was just as happy as a witch in a broom factory.

beshannon · 9 May 2013, 04:23 AM

Damn, halfway through the thread I looked at my wrist and thought I had hit the jackpot

LA_LEC · 9 May 2013, 04:25 AM

Here is some information for you about the 16610LV.

Included is information on the different dials that were used on this unique anniversary edition of the 16610 Submariner watch: L I N K

77T · 9 May 2013, 04:25 AM

Many diverse opinions...

Even more in a flat 4 LV thread from 3 years ago
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=154779

My crystal ball is clouded by current financial environment - but a flat 4 LV bubble could form around the lowest documented Y serial numbered cases. Then next phase will be frankened Sub LN low Y serial # cases pressed into service as "barn finds" after a green insert is put on. This is where genuine papers can make a difference.

Oh what a tangled web...

Chewbacca · 9 May 2013, 04:27 AM

the upside down #1 on the bezel is rarer if you can find one...

but seriously, there's so many subtle changes to the LV run from 2003 - 2010 (?) that any of them will be marketable to a collector down the road. rehaute's, band codes, bezel inserts, serial #'s etc...

the real question will be whether other, more desirable rolex models will slip through the cracks with all the attention on the sub lv's. i can name 5 other rolexes just off the top of my head from 1980's - 2000 that will (and deservedly imo) be worth more in relation to current selling prices in 20 years. but again, this is all spec, but its my spec, so i would put money on it. hold the phone, i already have!

SLS · 9 May 2013, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by datejust24

may be a dumb question but...on my 14060M there is an "M" after the 14060 when I take the band off...sooo is there an LV after the 16610?

The M on the 14060 refers to a modification done to the movement on the no date sub. The 14060 uses the cal. 3000 whereas the 14060M uses the 3035. For the LV, the movement is the same as any other Sub so the only way to tell that it is an LV, aside from the green bezel, is by the paperwork/ warranty card.
Scott

LA_LEC · 9 May 2013, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by padi56

Have to agree Larry first its was the mistake dial or stick dial GMT11 many got the fingers burned on that one, now its the flat four font. The Internet is a wonderful place for Rolex hype and if you are fool enough to buy hype.All the aluminum inserts from the same time frame had flat four fonts why no interest with them like say on SD.

Reason is simple:

Because there has always been a huge interest in the Submariner since it is THE most ICONIC and recognizable Rolex model in the world!

Therefore, when Rolex released the 50th anniversary edition of that watch there was (and clearly STILL IS) tremendous interest in that version - the 16610LV.

So you tell me...the most iconic Rolex design...anniversary edition...limited... collectible...I think it is obvious just WHY there is interest in this watch and it the various variations during its limited production run.

LA_LEC · 9 May 2013, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLS

For the LV, the movement is the same as any other Sub so the only way to tell that it is an LV, aside from the green bezel, is by the paperwork/ warranty card.
Scott

Incorrect Info

Actually the 16610LV has the maxi dial face and longer hands both of which give it a different appearance over the 16610 sub.

Those changes along with the distinctive green bezel distinguish it from "any other Sub"! Quite a few differences in appearance actually!

Welshwatchman · 9 May 2013, 04:41 AM

A good litmus test is the "Does Ken have one?" test.

Me, I have a M serial 2009 version bought for just over £3k from my local dealer.

I grabbed a bargain and I like it, same criteria as my other watches.

9 May 2013, 02:01 AM	#4
Tools TRF Moderator & 2024 SubLV41 Patron Join Date: May 2007 Real Name: Larry Location: Mojave Desert Watch: GMT's Posts: 43,514	A watch will sell for whatever the market will bear.. The Internet has resulted in increases in prices for almost every product since it brings more people into contact with the product.. Flat 4's are simply the font of the 4 on the bezel.. For decades Rolex used a 4 that was flat on top and also had a flat (as opposed to coming to a point) on the inside of the 4. These are "flat 4's". Because Rolex changed their font slightly in later years, only the first year or so of the LV had these older style fonts.. Personally, it's hardly a good reason to pay a premium for a watch.. Flat 4's: [/URL] __________________ (Chill ... It's just a watch Forum.....) NAWCC Member

9 May 2013, 02:05 AM	#5
SWISSAHOLICS "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Here! Watch: Rolex Posts: 4,366	It's ridiculous to pay such high prices for a LV just because of Flat 4 font. __________________ 16610LN \| 16613LB \| 16710 Pepsi \| 118238 \| 116500 (White) \| 116500 (Black) \| 116710BLNR \| 116610LV "The one thing I fear most is time; time waits for no one and leaves no options."

9 May 2013, 02:10 AM	#6
Micha "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2009 Real Name: Michael Location: S.Florida/Ontario Watch: 6263, 1675 Posts: 2,259	the flat 4 on that bezel would indicate the Mark 1 dial, the first and by some considered to be the ONLY TRUE Anniversary Edition of the LV, since it was introduced in 2003, exactly 50 years after the first Sub was introduced. This is why collectors want THAT year, Y or early F series Attached Images __________________ life is good

9 May 2013, 02:32 AM	#12
Passionata "TRF" Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: N/A Watch: the girls Posts: 7,095	OP ,it s a Mark 1 serial watch ,a late Y and early F serials are the most wanted among collectors . Best George Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 __________________ Best George "Also remember that feet don't get fat and a watch will always speak volumes." Robert Johnston --------------------- newhttps://youtu.be/EljAF-uddhE new http://youtu.be/ZmpLoO1Q8eQ IG @passionata1

9 May 2013, 02:34 AM	#13
TonyD 2024 Pledge Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Real Name: Tony Location: Boston North Watch: Meteorite Daytona Posts: 1,471	Yeah but ask me in 20 years if this ever becomes the red sub of the future. You always see notes about open 6/9 date wheels being coveted. You never know. __________________ Pepsi GMT/SD43/DSSD Blue/ DJ41 TT Rose Diamond Dial/ Daytona Meteorite/ SS Sky Dweller White Dial/ IWC Bronze Big Pilot/ Aquanautic Super King / Omega Ploprof 1200 / Graham Scarab Diver

9 May 2013, 01:52 AM	#1
bscepter "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Real Name: Patrick Location: Omaha Watch: 16610 Submariner Posts: 948	"flat 4?" There's a 16610LV for sale on TRF that is going for $8,599, which seems quite high to me (i know the LVs command a premium over the LNs, but you usually see them in the $6-7k range). one of its selling points, apparently, is that it has a "flat 4." can anyone explain this to me? btw, i'm not trying to call out the seller or anything; i'm genuinely curious as to why this particular LV is worth more than some of the others i've seen for sale here. __________________ 2009 16610 Submariner Date 1971 1601 Datejust 1966 Omega Seamaster 1965 Vulcain Voyager Chronograph

9 May 2013, 01:53 AM	#2
ryanbush "TRF" Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Arkansas Posts: 155	I was wondering the samething, glad you asked!

9 May 2013, 02:21 AM	#7
michel33 Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: france Posts: 796	The LV 16610 was not a limited edition, much to the annoyance of collectors/sellers.... Thus, they decided arbitrarily the 2003 LV should be the "only true anniversary edition".... NOT ROLEX.... So, imho, this is insane to pay such a premium and this is a foolish internet hype.... Moreover, every black sub of the same era also features a flat four on its bezel.... But to each their own....

9 May 2013, 02:24 AM	#8
Roller07 "TRF" Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: GMT -5 Watch: HulkPepsiCoke Posts: 2,364	Personally, it's hardly a good reason to pay a premium for a watch.. Yep.

9 May 2013, 02:29 AM	#11
datejust24 "TRF" Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Real Name: Chris Location: Cincinnati,Ohio Watch: Rolexssss Posts: 3,504	may be a dumb question but...on my 14060M there is an "M" after the 14060 when I take the band off...sooo is there an LV after the 16610?

9 May 2013, 02:44 AM	#15
KBM 2024 SubLV41 Pledge Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Real Name: K. Location: 780 Posts: 10,460	Amazing how there is always a need to try to make a specific watch more exclusive. I truly never understood the concept of the pleasure in a limited edition. If a watch is great, I would like as many people as possible to have access to it, enjoy it and be happy with their good fortune in being able to own a luxury timepiece. It seems petty to me to want to be among a few with the opportunity to wear a specific watch, because "only x units were produced".

9 May 2013, 03:30 AM	#16
bscepter "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Real Name: Patrick Location: Omaha Watch: 16610 Submariner Posts: 948	interesting responses. very informative. again, i wasn't trying to call out a seller in any way; i was just curious. and now i know... which is why i visit TRF. __________________ 2009 16610 Submariner Date 1971 1601 Datejust 1966 Omega Seamaster 1965 Vulcain Voyager Chronograph

9 May 2013, 04:23 AM	#22
aeon888 "TRF" Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Midwest Posts: 746	That's because there is always a market for those so-called "collectibles". It all depends if there is a willing buyer or a "collector" that believes that the high premium price is equal to the value of the watch. The same holds true for art collectors, knife collectors, gun collectors etc. In fact, some rich guy just paid more than 2 million dollars for a single piece of china bowl this year. Yeah, nothing fancy, just a plain old china bowl from some old Chinese dynasty. No flat 4's, gold dials nor diamond-encrusted bezels or vintage Rolex that Moses wore to divide the Red Sea here. But he was just as happy as a witch in a broom factory.

9 May 2013, 04:23 AM	#23
beshannon "TRF" Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Real Name: Brian Location: Northern Virginia Watch: One of Not Many Posts: 17,892	Damn, halfway through the thread I looked at my wrist and thought I had hit the jackpot __________________ IWC Portugieser 7 Day, Omega Seamaster SMP300m, Vacheron Constantin Traditionnelle Complete Calendar, Glashutte PanoInverse, Glashutte SeaQ Panorama Date, Omega Aqua Terra 150, Omega CK 859, Omega Speedmaster 3861 Moonwatch, Breitling Superocean Steelfish, JLC Atmos Transparent Clock

9 May 2013, 04:25 AM	#24
LA_LEC "TRF" Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Los Angeles Watch: Explorer Posts: 1,793	Here is some information for you about the 16610LV. Included is information on the different dials that were used on this unique anniversary edition of the 16610 Submariner watch: L I N K __________________ 16610 ♛ 16610LV ♛ 214270 MK2 "Life is far too short not to wear a Rolex!"

9 May 2013, 04:25 AM	#25
77T 2024 SubLV41 Pledge Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Real Name: PaulG Location: Georgia Posts: 42,015	Many diverse opinions... Even more in a flat 4 LV thread from 3 years ago http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=154779 My crystal ball is clouded by current financial environment - but a flat 4 LV bubble could form around the lowest documented Y serial numbered cases. Then next phase will be frankened Sub LN low Y serial # cases pressed into service as "barn finds" after a green insert is put on. This is where genuine papers can make a difference. Oh what a tangled web... __________________ Does anyone really know what time it is?

9 May 2013, 04:27 AM	#26
Chewbacca Banned Join Date: May 2012 Real Name: CJ Location: Kashyyyk Watch: Kessel Run Chrono Posts: 21,112	the upside down #1 on the bezel is rarer if you can find one... but seriously, there's so many subtle changes to the LV run from 2003 - 2010 (?) that any of them will be marketable to a collector down the road. rehaute's, band codes, bezel inserts, serial #'s etc... the real question will be whether other, more desirable rolex models will slip through the cracks with all the attention on the sub lv's. i can name 5 other rolexes just off the top of my head from 1980's - 2000 that will (and deservedly imo) be worth more in relation to current selling prices in 20 years. but again, this is all spec, but its my spec, so i would put money on it. hold the phone, i already have!

9 May 2013, 04:41 AM	#30
Welshwatchman "TRF" Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Real Name: Paul Location: Wales, UK Posts: 14,578	A good litmus test is the "Does Ken have one?" test. Me, I have a M serial 2009 version bought for just over £3k from my local dealer. I grabbed a bargain and I like it, same criteria as my other watches.

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