A tiny RANT…!!!

[Clay]

Looked at a watch the other day and decided to purchase…made the deal and all was well…

But after looking closer at the photo's, I was convinced that the bezel insert was aftermarket and NOT authentic…

I emailed the seller (This was NOT a regular person but a DEALER) and told him that I thought it was aftermarket and would he care to comment…

It took two days but he finally got back to me and said that he thought it was aftermarket…

Now here's the thing…Had I not asked, he would have sent me the watch, hoping that I didn't realize that the insert was aftermarket…

And to those of you who say: "Well, dealers don't always know that much or are not that knowledgeable..." I say; "BULLSHIT!!!"

You are selling items that are worth thousands and thousands of dollars…

If you don't know the difference, then you should NOT be a dealer…!!!

End of story…!!!

There…I feel much better…Have a good evening...

[Presa canary]

Good catch

[TimeToGo]

You go on and RANT!

Let's see... you purchase a watch from a dealer and pay for it (I guess not clear). Then you somehow figure the insert is not right so you email the seller....(48 hours later...)

... or two days later...the dealer has yet to mail you the watch...so I guess he is going to keep it and give you a refund.

Love the details!

[paverman]

It's a shame that we always have to be on the lookout for those just trying to make a quick buck. As the saying goes; buyer beware.
Good catch.

[greekbum]

Clay I agree with you BUT can tell you my personal experience is 95%-98% of all dealers don't have a clue about vintage Rolex watches and whats correct, real or............They simply buy and sell watches and many have been doing this for decades. When it comes to vintage watches you have to be somewhat informed or an expert as a buyer OR buy from someone who is and stands behind what they sell. I have bought 1000's of watches in the last 25 years. Some for a song and others for above market and 90% when the cash traded hands i had no recourse. I have had many surprises some good some bad but for me it was all part of the thrill. Glad it worked out for you.

[jedly1]

Originally Posted by greekbum

Clay I agree with you BUT can tell you my personal experience is 95%-98% of all dealers don't have a clue about vintage Rolex watches and whats correct, real or............They simply buy and sell watches and many have been doing this for decades. When it comes to vintage watches you have to be somewhat informed or an expert as a buyer OR buy from someone who is and stands behind what they sell. I have bought 1000's of watches in the last 25 years. Some for a song and others for above market and 90% when the cash traded hands i had no recourse. I have had many surprises some good some bad but for me it was all part of the thrill. Glad it worked out for you.

+1

[Beaumont Miller II]

Clay, glad it worked out for you.
In my experience there are vintage dealers and by contrast dealers that sell some vintage watches. The level of knowledge between the two is vast. On the rare occasion that I have purchased a watch from the latter, I end up educating them to some degree. On some occasions that can work for you when negotiating on price; however, on other occasions it can lead to anger and frustration. Recently I was negotiating on a watch based on a stock photo... never again. Did I mention anger and frustration?

[crowncollection]

glad it all worked out clay, i have had the same problem more than once myself

[Clay]

Originally Posted by greekbum

Clay I agree with you BUT can tell you my personal experience is 95%-98% of all dealers don't have a clue about vintage Rolex watches and whats correct, real or............They simply buy and sell watches and many have been doing this for decades. When it comes to vintage watches you have to be somewhat informed or an expert as a buyer OR buy from someone who is and stands behind what they sell. I have bought 1000's of watches in the last 25 years. Some for a song and others for above market and 90% when the cash traded hands i had no recourse. I have had many surprises some good some bad but for me it was all part of the thrill. Glad it worked out for you.

N,
I hear what you are saying and you are absolutely correct…But that still doesn't make it right…

And maybe if more people kick and scream, maybe over time this might help to change things…

We are not talking about a few dollars here, we are talking about thousands and thousands…

I certainly agree that as buyers we must be vigilant and educate ourselves against this sort of thing…

But I feel that sellers should do the same…

I know, I know, to a certain extent I am living in a fantasy world, but hey, I can dream can't I…???

[CrownMe]

unfortunately this will continue to happen if dealers have no consequences. While im glad to see this work out for clay, the next guy might not be as lucky. Without the sellers name being known, the watch flys under the radar and merely gets put back on the shelf for some un lucky buyer to purchase. I understand why that information is not given but you know what i mean.

[robisan]

Originally Posted by greekbum

Clay I agree with you BUT can tell you my personal experience is 95%-98% of all dealers don't have a clue about vintage Rolex watches and whats correct, real or............They simply buy and sell watches and many have been doing this for decades. When it comes to vintage watches you have to be somewhat informed or an expert as a buyer OR buy from someone who is and stands behind what they sell. I have bought 1000's of watches in the last 25 years. Some for a song and others for above market and 90% when the cash traded hands i had no recourse. I have had many surprises some good some bad but for me it was all part of the thrill. Glad it worked out for you.

x2 as long as the seller stands behind what he sells, no problem. Buy the seller.

[greekbum]

Originally Posted by Clay

N,
I hear what you are saying and you are absolutely correct…But that still doesn't make it right…

And maybe if more people kick and scream, maybe over time this might help to change things…

We are not talking about a few dollars here, we are talking about thousands and thousands…

I certainly agree that as buyers we must be vigilant and educate ourselves against this sort of thing…

But I feel that sellers should do the same…

I know, I know, to a certain extent I am living in a fantasy world, but hey, I can dream can't I…???

When buying something old and used that most likely has been repaired, changed hands several times and still looking for a bargain there has to be a certain risk you take....... I take this risk daily myself. A scenario ill give you is this a local jeweler buys a watch from a customer say a vintage Daytona for $1000 yes it happens...then calls up a guy like me and others to sell it. They go to ebay forums etc and see what they go for...20k...30k etc and yes they want all that money. You show up they know nothing about the watch show it to you and say make an offer we are thinking 30k etc. Once the money changes hands guess what? Your right you own it as they told you they don't know much about it. They also made about 95% of the profit and left with you with the last 3 drops of the juice in most cases. 95% of dealers don't want to invest the time to learn vintage and to stay ahead of the game you have to invest big time and also loose lots of money learning this.So if you don't want much risk or headaches go to a guy that specializes in vintage rolex and stands behind it. Yes he may be a few $ more than ebay and the guys that don't know but its something to think about if your spending $1000's of dollars. I don't ever see a day when all know what they are talking about as fake parts and franken watches are out there and yes some look good enough to fool somebody.Jewelers and dealers get burned daily with no recourse as most thought they were getting a deal and jumped on it. The very best place is the forum to educate yourself and to buy imho.

[Nissanzx1]

While I do understand the frustration of this buyer, I think everyone seriously in the watch hobby should sell a few pieces to sit on the other side of the fence.

I did that myself in 2013 (with modern Rolex). I sold probably 7-8 watches in total. My best, I made a couple hundred, my worst I lost almost $600 (watch ended up needing a repair that couldn't in good conscious be avoided). I might have made a couple hundred selling these 7-8 pieces all year. Not much money when it takes 30 minutes to photograph and write the copy for the ad, answer emails, phone calls, etc.

To Greekbum's comment about "looking for a bragain" Buyer's are incredibly cheap. Yes, I have lost deals for a $20 bill on a Rolex. Of course, to be fair I am kinda cheap when I am looking at buying something ;)

I'm glad Clay got this one sorted out. I just thought it might be nice to balance it out with another perspective.

Cheers,

-GH

[roh123]

I'd say that dealers hanging out on Vintage Rolex sites should be informed of what they sell. They make a reputation as safe guys and should be able to spot obvious probs that most semi knowledgeable people know. I'm quite connfident most dealers have enough knowledge but greed/lazyness sometimes make them send off bad parts to non-knowing newbies thinking the watch is 100% as it comes from a nice dealer. Same thing about sellers claiming cases are super fat and mint when they are clearly overpolished and lost most of it's original form...

Dealers want to make money and some, not all thank god, leave out important details in hope of a quick sale. Buyers need to be informed yes but I think it's a cheap trick saying they can't know. We are not talking about super rare stuff only a handful people know about. We are talking about normal sport watches with obvious flaws that often gets sold as quickly as possible. Where's the pride in the profession?

[lhanddds]

Good sellers develop a reputation. That is worth extra. If you don't know the seller you are upping your risk. This goes for most professions and businesses.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk

[Clay]

Originally Posted by greekbum

When buying something old and used that most likely has been repaired, changed hands several times and still looking for a bargain there has to be a certain risk you take....... I take this risk daily myself. A scenario ill give you is this a local jeweler buys a watch from a customer say a vintage Daytona for $1000 yes it happens...then calls up a guy like me and others to sell it. They go to ebay forums etc and see what they go for...20k...30k etc and yes they want all that money. You show up they know nothing about the watch show it to you and say make an offer we are thinking 30k etc. Once the money changes hands guess what? Your right you own it as they told you they don't know much about it. They also made about 95% of the profit and left with you with the last 3 drops of the juice in most cases. 95% of dealers don't want to invest the time to learn vintage and to stay ahead of the game you have to invest big time and also loose lots of money learning this.So if you don't want much risk or headaches go to a guy that specializes in vintage rolex and stands behind it. Yes he may be a few $ more than ebay and the guys that don't know but its something to think about if your spending $1000's of dollars. I don't ever see a day when all know what they are talking about as fake parts and franken watches are out there and yes some look good enough to fool somebody.Jewelers and dealers get burned daily with no recourse as most thought they were getting a deal and jumped on it. The very best place is the forum to educate yourself and to buy imho.

N,
I think you missed something here…
I'm not talking about buying a watch from someone who doesn't know anything…
I'm not talking about buying from a guy who found his grandfathers watch in a closet and is trying to make a quick buck…
I'm talking about buying from someone who is in business to sell Vintage Rolex watches…
I'm talking about people who know better, yet are hoping that the buyer doesn't…!!!

When I pointed out the fake insert, the seller didm;t argue and refunded my money…I have no issues with that part…

My point is that I shouldn't have to point things like that out when dealing with people who are in business to sell vintage watches…

It was like the time I received a watch and the dial was completely spotted…This, after asking if the dial had any "Issues" I need be aware of…??? And this from a company that is well known and sells tons of vintage pieces…

I'm sorry but it's just wrong…!!!

Most of us know enough to ask the right questions or can spot a fake this or that…But what about the poor fellow who's just learning and goes to these people for help…And then gets ripped off…

Yeah I know, it's the way of the world and we all need to be careful…

But it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth…!!!

[Clay]

Originally Posted by Nissanzx1

While I do understand the frustration of this buyer, I think everyone seriously in the watch hobby should sell a few pieces to sit on the other side of the fence.

I did that myself in 2013 (with modern Rolex). I sold probably 7-8 watches in total. My best, I made a couple hundred, my worst I lost almost $600 (watch ended up needing a repair that couldn't in good conscious be avoided). I might have made a couple hundred selling these 7-8 pieces all year. Not much money when it takes 30 minutes to photograph and write the copy for the ad, answer emails, phone calls, etc.

To Greekbum's comment about "looking for a bragain" Buyer's are incredibly cheap. Yes, I have lost deals for a $20 bill on a Rolex. Of course, to be fair I am kinda cheap when I am looking at buying something ;)

I'm glad Clay got this one sorted out. I just thought it might be nice to balance it out with another perspective.

Cheers,

-GH

I have been at this hobby for many many years…And although I have not sold as many watches as some, I have probably sold 15 to 20 over the years…
I know all to well what the "selling" part of this hobby entails…
And regardless of how difficult it may be at times, that's no excuse for trying to cheat someone...

[rmfnla]

Originally Posted by Clay

N,
I think you missed something here…
I'm not talking about buying a watch from someone who doesn't know anything…
I'm not talking about buying from a guy who found his grandfathers watch in a closet and is trying to make a quick buck…
I'm talking about buying from someone who is in business to sell Vintage Rolex watches…
I'm talking about people who know better, yet are hoping that the buyer doesn't…!!!

When I pointed out the fake insert, the seller didm;t argue and refunded my money…I have no issues with that part…

My point is that I shouldn't have to point things like that out when dealing with people who are in business to sell vintage watches…

It was like the time I received a watch and the dial was completely spotted…This, after asking if the dial had any "Issues" I need be aware of…??? And this from a company that is well known and sells tons of vintage pieces…

I'm sorry but it's just wrong…!!!

Most of us know enough to ask the right questions or can spot a fake this or that…But what about the poor fellow who's just learning and goes to these people for help…And then gets ripped off…

Yeah I know, it's the way of the world and we all need to be careful…

But it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth…!!!

I get this.

As they say on TRF, buy the seller, and in this case no sale...

[lhanddds]

Originally Posted by Clay

N,
I think you missed something here…
I'm not talking about buying a watch from someone who doesn't know anything…
I'm not talking about buying from a guy who found his grandfathers watch in a closet and is trying to make a quick buck…
I'm talking about buying from someone who is in business to sell Vintage Rolex watches…
I'm talking about people who know better, yet are hoping that the buyer doesn't…!!!

When I pointed out the fake insert, the seller didm;t argue and refunded my money…I have no issues with that part…

My point is that I shouldn't have to point things like that out when dealing with people who are in business to sell vintage watches…

It was like the time I received a watch and the dial was completely spotted…This, after asking if the dial had any "Issues" I need be aware of…??? And this from a company that is well known and sells tons of vintage pieces…

I'm sorry but it's just wrong…!!!

Most of us know enough to ask the right questions or can spot a fake this or that…But what about the poor fellow who's just learning and goes to these people for help…And then gets ripped off…

Yeah I know, it's the way of the world and we all need to be careful…

But it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth…!!!

If this guy was a known trusted seller then maybe he needs to be revealed.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk

[mfer]

People can make mistakes IMHO. It is how they handle the mistakes when found that matters.

[springer]

Clay, what model was the insert on? How about a photo of the insert. What made you suspect it was aftermarket, i.e., the pearl, the fonts, the color...inquiring minds what to know.

[Kringkily]

Vintage is whole other ball game but if they specialize in a certain brand then maybe but if they sell a wide range of brands and models then sometimes things can slip. It happens but if they are quick to resolve then all should be good. Happy hunting to you.

[Cc1966]

Originally Posted by springer

Clay, what model was the insert on? How about a photo of the insert. What made you suspect it was aftermarket, i.e., the pearl, the fonts, the color...inquiring minds what to know.

x2

[Welshwatchman]

Originally Posted by TimeToGo

You go on and RANT!

Let's see... you purchase a watch from a dealer and pay for it (I guess not clear). Then you somehow figure the insert is not right so you email the seller....(48 hours later...)

... or two days later...the dealer has yet to mail you the watch...so I guess he is going to keep it and give you a refund.

Love the details!

Is this the seller?

[subtona]

Alls well that ends well! Glad you caught it before it became messy

To what Nikos says...sometimes you can avoid some of these issues by going with those at the top of the game, of course they will tend to charge more for their experience, service and education, this is all good but when the price goes up, i know my expectations go up as well, occasionally even those at the top of the game will disappoint....

So then we choose our level of service based on our values & personal experience, it seems no matter where we land it is always a delicate balance of expectations, value & service by the customer vs expectations, time & profit for the seller

IMO the expectations being the x factor...
i think this one is the hardest to agree upon.

Happy new year!

[TimeToGo]

Originally Posted by Welshwatchman

Is this the seller?

Absolutely not but thanks for asking!

Just have to love the lack of details on this thread. It's like the Seinfeld series, a show about nothing...

OP says he purchased from a company that is "well known and sells tons of vintage pieces..."

He emailed the company and he did not receive a reply for two days....

Wow, what a reputable company! Hopefully not from this forum!

OP should disclose the website to this "company" to readers of this forum so they can learn from the mistake.

Who knows, maybe it was so obvious that the insert was aftermarket that he is embarrassed he did not noticed it sooner.

Or yet, maybe we should start a new forum "Rant" section where no one is allowed to reply and the threads go unread...

Clay - we live in a world that has inserts, and those inserts are legit and aftermarket. Who's gonna tell the difference? You? ... TRF has a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for "aftermarket inserts," and you curse the "Vintage Dealers." You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That this insert oversight, while tragic, probably saved vintage collectors. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves "vintage purchasers." You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on TRF, you need us on TRF. We use words like Mk-1, Mk-2, Fat Font inserts. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that TRF provides, and then questions the manner in which it provides it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a new insert, and pop it in! Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

[subtona]

Originally Posted by TimeToGo

Absolutely not but thanks for asking!
... we live in a world that has inserts, and those inserts are legit and aftermarket. Who's gonna tell the difference? You? ... TRF has a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for "aftermarket inserts," and you curse the "Vintage Dealers." You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That this insert oversight, while tragic, probably saved vintage collectors. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves "vintage purchasers." You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on TRF, you need us on TRF. We use words like Mk-1, Mk-2, Fat Font inserts. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that TRF provides, and then questions the manner in which it provides it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a new insert, and pop it in! Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

ok maybe over the top but damn

[Jason71]

Clay, I'm sorry but I disagree to a certain extent. I think you are one of the few (maybe top 5%) that actually CAN pick out fine details about a vintage watch. Many buyers don't know, nor do they care. I'm not talking about people on this forum. People on this forum are generally better educated. I have been learning and educating myself about vintage Rolex watches. I still have a very difficult time picking out an aftermarket bezel insert unless it is just blatently fake without the help of some of the experts here. It is also often difficult to determine if a Tudor sub has a fake case.

This forum is far better educated about vintage Rolex watches than the general public and probably many sellers that sell vintage Rolex. Obviously sellers such as Eric ku and Jacek don't fall into this category IMHO.

[Clay]

Originally Posted by TimeToGo

Absolutely not but thanks for asking!

Just have to love the lack of details on this thread. It's like the Seinfeld series, a show about nothing...

OP says he purchased from a company that is "well known and sells tons of vintage pieces..."

He emailed the company and he did not receive a reply for two days....

Wow, what a reputable company! Hopefully not from this forum!

OP should disclose the website to this "company" to readers of this forum so they can learn from the mistake.

Who knows, maybe it was so obvious that the insert was aftermarket that he is embarrassed he did not noticed it sooner.

Or yet, maybe we should start a new forum "Rant" section where no one is allowed to reply and the threads go unread...

Clay - we live in a world that has inserts, and those inserts are legit and aftermarket. Who's gonna tell the difference? You? ... TRF has a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for "aftermarket inserts," and you curse the "Vintage Dealers." You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That this insert oversight, while tragic, probably saved vintage collectors. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves "vintage purchasers." You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on TRF, you need us on TRF. We use words like Mk-1, Mk-2, Fat Font inserts. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that TRF provides, and then questions the manner in which it provides it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a new insert, and pop it in! Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

I'm confused???

Have I offended you in some way???

Have I accused you of anything???

In fact, do I even know you???

[psv]

Vintage Rolex/watches continues to be a shady business and it will only get worse as prices goes up.