Question for the board re: FP 1185 vs AP 3126

[bruinmd]

What is the general comparison/consensus on these two movements:
1. Which is considered the more 'reliable' and/or robust movement? Which of the two is better paired to withstand daily wear and tear and which is the more ACCURATE of the two?
2. The 3126 has the benefit of being paired with clear case backs on the ROO models, which is nice plus.
3. The 1185 seems to be the more integrated of the two, despite being a modular movement.

I'm asking b/c I'm trying to decide between the Grey ghost and the new 42mm blue dial ROOC titanium that was just released at SIHH. I've already spoken to my boutique contact and the demand for this latter watch is off the charts.
I think I have a good shot to get one-- if I want it-- b/c of my relationship. Time will tell. The ghost will be much easier to get, by comparison.
I love the dial on this new model and the color combo in particular (grey sub dials against the blue dial). However, I love the ceramic bezel and clear case back on the ghost.

My thinking is that if the 1185 is considered the more robust/reliable/accurate movement for long term wear, then the closed case back and lack of a CE bezel is worth the price I have to pay on the new blue dial titanium, not to mention the lower power reserve that comes with the 1185.

Also, the new in house chrono is not expected to make its way to the RO line for at least 18-24 months, per AP. We shall see if that's true or not.
Regardless, it will take a while before we know how reliable this movement is.

[SMD]

1185 is modular? Not according to AP.

[bruinmd]

Originally Posted by SMD

1185 is modular? Not according to AP.

https://www.watch-wiki.net/index.php?title=Piguet_1185

The 1185 is modular, but highly integrated.


Unless this is wrong.


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[SMD]

Originally Posted by bruinmd

https://www.watch-wiki.net/index.php?title=Piguet_1185

The 1185 is modular, but highly integrated.


Unless this is wrong.


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I guess I trust AP on this, and Hodinkee and many other sources more than watch wiki. The only way this could be viewed as modular is the fact that it started as the 1180, which was handwound and the 1185 added the automatic module. But that is very different than a DD modular chronograph like the 3126. Keep in mind the 1185 is probably the thinnest automatic chrono movements available. This would not be possible if it was modular.

[karasus]

Originally Posted by SMD

I guess I trust AP on this, and Hodinkee and many other sources more than watch wiki. The only way this could be viewed as modular is the fact that it started as the 1180, which was handwound and the 1185 added the automatic module. But that is very different than a DD modular chronograph like the 3126. Keep in mind the 1185 is probably the thinnest automatic chrono movements available. This would not be possible if it was modular.

1185 is an integrated chronograph with a modular autonatic winding system.

3216 is an automatic movement with a modular chronograph.

1185 - winding system is an attached module

3126 - chronograph is an attached module

Both are modular, but the "better" more integrated chronograph is the 1185.

[bruinmd]

Originally Posted by karasus

1185 is an integrated chronograph with a modular autonatic winding system.

3216 is an automatic movement with a modular chronograph.

1185 - winding system is an attached module

3126 - chronograph is an attached module

Both are modular, but the "better" more integrated chronograph is the 1185.

Very informative-- thanks for clarifying this.

[hussain]

I'm also torn between getting a ROC and a ROO, would like to see some experts chime in

[uracowman]

Originally Posted by bruinmd

What is the general comparison/consensus on these two movements:
1. Which is considered the more 'reliable' and/or robust movement? Which of the two is better paired to withstand daily wear and tear and which is the more ACCURATE of the two?
2. The 3126 has the benefit of being paired with clear case backs on the ROO models, which is nice plus.
3. The 1185 seems to be the more integrated of the two, despite being a modular movement.

I'm asking b/c I'm trying to decide between the Grey ghost and the new 42mm blue dial ROOC titanium that was just released at SIHH. I've already spoken to my boutique contact and the demand for this latter watch is off the charts.
I think I have a good shot to get one-- if I want it-- b/c of my relationship. Time will tell. The ghost will be much easier to get, by comparison.
I love the dial on this new model and the color combo in particular (grey sub dials against the blue dial). However, I love the ceramic bezel and clear case back on the ghost.

My thinking is that if the 1185 is considered the more robust/reliable/accurate movement for long term wear, then the closed case back and lack of a CE bezel is worth the price I have to pay on the new blue dial titanium, not to mention the lower power reserve that comes with the 1185.

Also, the new in house chrono is not expected to make its way to the RO line for at least 18-24 months, per AP. We shall see if that's true or not.
Regardless, it will take a while before we know how reliable this movement is.

the 1185 is integrated, not modular. In terms of daily wear and tear, both will suffice but the 3126 is considered more robust in terms of activities that are harder on the watch. In terms of feel, the 1185 is much better and is one of the best chronographs out there. The actuation is fantastic but the drawback and a slight knock AP will always run into is the movement is not an in house caliber.

Based on your post, I would just go with which one looks better to you and whether you want to see the movement or not through a display back.

[bruinmd]

Originally Posted by uracowman

the 1185 is integrated, not modular. In terms of daily wear and tear, both will suffice but the 3126 is considered more robust in terms of activities that are harder on the watch. In terms of feel, the 1185 is much better and is one of the best chronographs out there. The actuation is fantastic but the drawback and a slight knock AP will always run into is the movement is not an in house caliber.

Based on your post, I would just go with which one looks better to you and whether you want to see the movement or not through a display back.

https://www.watch-wiki.net/index.php?title=Piguet_1185

Apparently the 1185 is a highly integrated modular movement.

I know the 1185 is in the ROC— I’ve just never really read much in the way of comps between it and the 3126, which surprised me given that that it makes up the two lines of ROC and ROOC.

When you say the 1185 has a better ‘feel’ I’m not sure what you mean. Because it’s thinner and therefore sits in a thinner case?

Any differences in accuracy or reliability?




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[AK797]

From my experience here, the ROC is the least reported with issues, followed by the ROO. It is the RO that had the most issues.

[bruinmd]

Originally Posted by AK797

From my experience here, the ROC is the least reported with issues, followed by the ROO. It is the RO that had the most issues.

Interesting.

So the trade off is, more reliable movement (1185), but it's not in house, and you have to deal with a closed case back.

I was just offered a Grey ghost this morning, but passed on it. Waiting on the blue dial titanium to arrive and will see what it looks like when it hits the boutiques this summer.
I can always get the GG later on if I don't love the blue dial titanium ROOC.

[AK797]

Originally Posted by bruinmd

Interesting.

So the trade off is, more reliable movement (1185), but it's not in house, and you have to deal with a closed case back.

I was just offered a Grey ghost this morning, but passed on it. Waiting on the blue dial titanium to arrive and will see what it looks like when it hits the boutiques this summer.
I can always get the GG later on if I don't love the blue dial titanium ROOC.

Yes, but this is minor as APSC is so efficient and a pleasure, unlike Patek for the former, or Rolex for the latter, so I'd just choose the watch you like the most.

The not raising prices much for a coveted improvement is a Rolex move, and one that has been very successful for them - D500, Pepsi, SkyD etc but it is a bold strategy and whether AP can resist the temptation to put the blood and sweat of this long awaited movement fully into the ROC's price remains to be seen. I think the success/failure of the Code will inform FHB of where to price this.

[bruinmd]

Originally Posted by AK797

Yes, but this is minor as APSC is so efficient and a pleasure, unlike Patek for the former, or Rolex for the latter, so I'd just choose the watch you like the most.

The not raising prices much for a coveted improvement is a Rolex move, and one that has been very successful for them - D500, Pepsi, SkyD etc but it is a bold strategy and whether AP can resist the temptation to put the blood and sweat of this long awaited movement fully into the ROC's price remains to be seen. I think the success/failure of the Code will inform FHB of where to price this.

What is minor-- the fact that the 1185 in not an in house movement? I agree, and in fact I'm more concerned about having a robust watch/movement that has stood the test of time than being one of the first people to have the new ROOC when it comes out with the in house movement.

I agree with you completely in that I think AP will see how the code sells before they come up with the pricing strategy with the subsequent release of the RO line.

[japenney]

Are both of these watches boutique only? We don't have a boutique in Canada. Just wondering if I can get either here

[bruinmd]

Originally Posted by japenney

Are both of these watches boutique only? We don't have a boutique in Canada. Just wondering if I can get either here

No, neither will be boutique only, but........

........ for the 10 blue dial titaniums that a boutique will get, an AD may get one.

[yyzpam]

I've had several pieces with both movements. In fact still own both a 44ti and ROC Panda. The 3126 modular chrono in a decent workhorse but has had it's issues. There were numerous problems in the past with both the chrono module and the base movement (you can search the board to get more info). All seemed to be a result of poor QC at the initial build stage. Once rectified by APSC the watches seemed to work well.

There have been less known issues with the 1185. IMHO its actually one of the best chrono movements out there. It's is much more and integrated movement and is a much more elegant solution then the 3126. I get the whole 'in-house' movement argument but to me the 1185's pedigree is better then most. Each brand that uses the movement modifies and decorates it to their own spec. AP is no different. It feels great !

And just wait and see what happens to the prices of ROC models once AP installs the newly released 4401 movement in these models (see what happened to the VC Overseas).

At the end...buy what you like, but I would not let the differences between these two movements be a deal breaker.

[bruinmd]

Originally Posted by yyzpam

I've had several pieces with both movements. In fact still own both a 44ti and ROC Panda. The 3126 modular chrono in a decent workhorse but has had it's issues. There were numerous problems in the past with both the chrono module and the base movement (you can search the board to get more info). All seemed to be a result of poor QC at the initial build stage. Once rectified by APSC the watches seemed to work well.

There have been less known issues with the 1185. IMHO its actually one of the best chrono movements out there. It's is much more and integrated movement and is a much more elegant solution then the 3126. I get the whole 'in-house' movement argument but to me the 1185's pedigree is better then most. Each brand that uses the movement modifies and decorates it to their own spec. AP is no different. It feels great !

And just wait and see what happens to the prices of ROC models once AP installs the newly released 4401 movement in these models (see what happened to the VC Overseas).

At the end...buy what you like, but I would not let the differences between these two movements be a deal breaker.

Word I got yesterday is that the new movement is a good 18-24 months away from being put in the RO line (if not longer). They are going to focus on the code 11 59 first.

Having said that, when the new in house movement does make its way into the RO, you could be right and the prices on these ROO and ROC will go way down on the secondary market.......but, I also think that b/c of limited supply and distribution, AP will guard against too big a drop in these watches moving forward. So, I think it's tough to use the VC overseas example, or even prior ROO from the era of easy availability and discounts.

Who knows.

[yyzpam]

Originally Posted by bruinmd

Word I got yesterday is that the new movement is a good 18-24 months away from being put in the RO line (if not longer). They are going to focus on the code 11 59 first.

Having said that, when the new in house movement does make its way into the RO, you could be right and the prices on these ROO and ROC will go way down on the secondary market.......but, I also think that b/c of limited supply and distribution, AP will guard against too big a drop in these watches moving forward. So, I think it's tough to use the VC overseas example, or even prior ROO from the era of easy availability and discounts.

Who knows.

Im sorry if I wasn’t clear but what I meant was that the price of the new in-house movement ROC will be MUCH higher then the current 26331. VC raised their prices big time when they launched the new movement. The used market for the older Overseas stayed stable but with fewer pieces around.

I believe that when AP gets around to the in house ROC we will be in for a sticker shock with MSRP much higher then the current ROC. They will also be much further along in the changes we are seeing to their retail sales model (with very few ADs if any), which will give them even better opportunity to control the market.

Where I was going with this, is that I believe the current ROC with its 1185 movement is a great piece which may prove to be a VERY good value for years to come.

[bruinmd]

Originally Posted by yyzpam

Im sorry if I wasn’t clear but what I meant was that the price of the new in-house movement ROC will be MUCH higher then the current 26331. VC raised their prices big time when they launched the new movement. The used market for the older Overseas stayed stable but with fewer pieces around.

I believe that when AP gets around to the in house ROC we will be in for a sticker shock with MSRP much higher then the current ROC. They will also be much further along in the changes we are seeing to their retail sales model (with very few ADs if any), which will give them even better opportunity to control the market.

Where I was going with this, is that I believe the current ROC with its 1185 movement is a great piece which may prove to be a VERY good value for years to come.

Got it. I hope you're right, but I agree with Sho-nuff in that I don't think the price increases will be massive for a couple of reasons:
1. The ROOC is already pushing the $30K price point (this new blue dial titanium piece doesn't even have a ceramic bezel, and has a closed case back with the FP 1185, and is priced at $28k). The grey ghost is close to $28k as well.
2. I think we will see an economic slow down by the end of 2019, although I don't think AP is too worried, given the reasons you said............. closing down AD's, controlling distribution, etc. I think they will weather it just fine, BUT I think it might be hard sell to justify going well over $30K for a SS offshore on a rubber strap. Especially when you get a PM daytona on OF for less.

I could be wrong, so we will see, but yes, a part of me thinks it might be good to wait until the new movement comes out, the more I think about it and try to think through this.

Now, if the ghost and this new titanium blue dial piece were in the $23-25k range, I would agree that they might be good values relatively speaking.

It's impossible to say right now.

[SMD]

Roo is also not truly in house either. Not sure I understand this fascination with in house. On the one hand you have one of the best, thinnest chrono movements ever created that has stood the test of time, or you can get a brand new untested and unproven in house movement from AP.

[bruinmd]

Originally Posted by SMD

Roo is also not truly in house either. Not sure I understand this fascination with in house. On the one hand you have one of the best, thinnest chrono movements ever created that has stood the test of time, or you can get a brand new untested and unproven in house movement from AP.

exactly.

So if you were to pick b/w the 2 movements, which would you prefer in your ROO, and why?

[SMD]

Originally Posted by bruinmd

exactly.

So if you were to pick b/w the 2 movements, which would you prefer in your ROO, and why?

I would pick the watch I liked best and wouldn’t focus so much on the movement. I have both and the movement never really factored into my decision.

[bruinmd]

Originally Posted by SMD

I would pick the watch I liked best and wouldn’t focus so much on the movement. I have both and the movement never really factored into my decision.

I'll know the answer to that when I get to see more in person pics of the new blue dial release.
Will have to be patient. I was offered a grey ghost today but said I couldn't pull the trigger until I got to see the blue dial (more pics of it).

Love the clear case back of the grey ghost, so that's one thing for sure I'll miss if I go with the new model.

[Sho-nuff]

My guess is that an in-house ROC will see some price increase but not a massive one. A massive price increase would push the price of the ROC into ROO territory. VC didn't have that issue when they raised their prices.

Also, I recall that when AP put their in-house 3126 movement in the ROO, they actually they kept the price the same.

[PJ S]

^
I thought we’d already dealt with this in another thread?

First off, if we’re going to accept that the 1185 is an automatic version of the 1180, then by default, every automatic winding mechanical watch is a hand wound one with an automatic winding module!
In other words, that’s nonsense – the 1185 is an integrated chronograph movement... end of

Regarding the new in-house chronograph movement, I read something about AP making 6K 11:59s over the next 3 years. My guess is that this timeframe will be spend real world beta testing the chrono before deciding to deploy it in the ROC and/or the ROOC.
To do both ranges, they’ll need to ramp up production dramatically, requiring a hefty investment in machinery and assemblers trained for it.
18-24 months is too soon, even if it proves utterly reliable – various other factors also need to end/fall into place before widespread usage is implemented.

[bruinmd]

Originally Posted by PJ S

^
I thought we’d already dealt with this in another thread?

First off, if we’re going to accept that the 1185 is an automatic version of the 1180, then by default, every automatic winding mechanical watch is a hand wound one with an automatic winding module!
In other words, that’s nonsense – the 1185 is an integrated chronograph movement... end of

Regarding the new in-house chronograph movement, I read something about AP making 6K 11:59s over the next 3 years. My guess is that this timeframe will be spend real world beta testing the chrono before deciding to deploy it in the ROC and/or the ROOC.
To do both ranges, they’ll need to ramp up production dramatically, requiring a hefty investment in machinery and assemblers trained for it.
18-24 months is too soon, even if it proves utterly reliable – various other factors also need to end/fall into place before widespread usage is implemented.

agree completely. I was told at least 2 years or so before they start rolling out the new chrono movement in the RO lines