Submariner 5512

[franzumb]

Hi, hope this message finds you well. I am new to this forum and I hope you can help me see if this watch is original(or had parts replaced). A watchmaker who used to work for a Rolex AD in my home country bought this watch a long time ago and offered it to me. He has shown me his tools and is very familiar on movements etc. He has this 5512 which he says is all original. The movement is engraved as 1530 and doesn’t have a COSC certification, the serial number is 47XXXX. The main issue I have with it is the lack of eagles beak and ring around minute markers. He replaced the bezel insert and hands for aesthetic purposes but the original are included. Hope you can help me with the pictures I attach, thanks in advance.

[alwayshere]

Others will chime in here but initial view is it doesn't look encouraging.

My thoughts:
- Serial would place it in eagle beak as you say. The case looks aftermarket to me. Serial / engraving doesn't look right
- Dial not gilt / chapter ring style. Can't be certain if its genuine with that picture - could it be just a standard MF dial? can't be sure
- the removed bezel insert might be genuine - the one on the watch is likely aftermarket

Again, others will chime in but I suggest taking extreme caution at this point.

[franzumb]

Thanks for the answer, I guessed it wasn't all original. Maybe the watch was recased at some point? What other pictures would you need to further help me, if its not a big trouble.

[harry in montreal]

The engraving is all upside down I believe. The printing goes above the model number.
The only part i like is that nice long 5 insert that was removed

[Juhuatai]

^no for early 5512's the engraving goes beneath the model number if I remember correctly.

[alwayshere]

lets use these ones as an example - also 47XXXXX serial.

Compare against OP's case, dont love:

1) engraving typography
2) no eagle beak

https://www.hqmilton.com/timepieces/...-pcg-case-A761

https://www.hqmilton.com/timepieces/...-bracelet-9436

[franzumb]

The Case back is stamped III.5X (cant read it). The spacing does not correspond with those seen in HQ. The "5512" is stamped much lower, resembling later models. I also just noticed that the lower crown guard is smaller than the one on top.

[baumare]

Very suspicious, completely different engraving





also the case looks very new on the serial side compare to the reference side

[Fredrik]

Are you sure it's not a 4.7M serial? That would indicate a service replacement case.

[Mark020]

Either fake or renumbered IMHO

[alwayshere]

Originally Posted by Fredrik

Are you sure it's not a 4.7M serial? That would indicate a service replacement case.

Replacement cases are in the 4.X millions. This is 47X,XXX. So much earlier.

[baumare]

Originally Posted by alwayshere

Replacement cases are in the 4.X millions. This is 47X,XXX. So much earlier.

For what we know it could be an attempt to a 4.7xx.xxx considering that is not a PCG, no?

[swish77]

Originally Posted by franzumb

The Case back is stamped III.5X (cant read it). The spacing does not correspond with those seen in HQ. The "5512" is stamped much lower, resembling later models. I also just noticed that the lower crown guard is smaller than the one on top.

Why even consider the watch at this point? Way too many apparent issues. Big pass!

[franzumb]

Originally Posted by swish77

Why even consider the watch at this point? Way too many apparent issues. Big pass!

I am considering because it is a very cheap price and it may be a mixture of different parts which might be worth something. The movement etc

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by franzumb

I am considering because it is a very cheap price and it may be a mixture of different parts which might be worth something. The movement etc

If the price is so cheap, then I guess the seller probably knows that it's a bunch of put-together parts, even though he claimed it was all original.

TBH, it requires a lot of experience to evaluate pieces like this, and to know which parts are legitimate for use or re-sale and which parts are fake and should not be re-sold by an honest seller. Unfortunately, I feel that you may be jumping into the deep end. But good luck to you.

[Tavli3]

According to the HQ Milton link that serial is for a 59 watch which should have a Swiss only dial and not a T Swiss T dial. So it looks like a service dial.
That plus the other concerns equals run Forest run.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[alwayshere]

Originally Posted by baumare

For what we know it could be an attempt to a 4.7xx.xxx considering that is not a PCG, no?

I blame Fredrik for taking us down the wrong path haha

I think you might be getting the digits mixed up here.

Service cases generally are 4,4XX,XXX (and not 4,7XX,XXX anyway)
OP's case is 47X,XXX

So its not trying to be a service case.

[MrChamfers]

Originally Posted by Tavli3

According to the HQ Milton link that serial is for a 59 watch which should have a Swiss only dial and not a T Swiss T dial. So it looks like a service dial.
That plus the other concerns equals run Forest run.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If it is only a couple grand, then why not buy it for the case, movement, dial etc? Well worth it.

[franzumb]

Thanks for all of the input everyone. Didn't expect that much feedback so quick.

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by MrChamfers

If it is only a couple grand, then why not buy it for the case, movement, dial etc? Well worth it.

The case doesn’t make any sense. A case with that serial number should have pointed crown guards. Not to mention the previously-mentioned suspicions re. the engraving (possibly, re-numbered, or fake). And the dial, without the benefit of better pictures to see what’s going on, it may not be legit.
As Swish mentioned earlier, pass.

[alwayshere]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

The case doesn’t make any sense. A case with that serial number should have pointed crown guards. Not to mention the previously-mentioned suspicions re. the engraving (possibly, re-numbered, or fake). And the dial, without the benefit of better pictures to see what’s going on, it may not be legit.
As Swish mentioned earlier, pass.

Agree - only the dial (maybe), hands and old bezel insert are worth something just depends on the asking price (and better pics). Then the OP will have to do his own research whether the aforementioned parts are legit or not. Won't have much faith on the seller at this point.

[baumare]

Originally Posted by alwayshere

I blame Fredrik for taking us down the wrong path haha

I think you might be getting the digits mixed up here.

Service cases generally are 4,4XX,XXX (and not 4,7XX,XXX anyway)
OP's case is 47X,XXX

So its not trying to be a service case.

Yes, let's blame him

Yes sure, I know that service cases starts with 4.4XX.XXX, but this is not what I meant, just for discussion let me explain better:



Could be an attempt to make it 4.7XX.XXX and not 47X.XXX or there is not enough space?

[franzumb]

Originally Posted by alwayshere

Agree - only the dial (maybe), hands and old bezel insert are worth something just depends on the asking price (and better pics). Then the OP will have to do his own research whether the aforementioned parts are legit or not. Won't have much faith on the seller at this point.

Here are some better pics.

Engraving in caseback is III.59

[alwayshere]

Originally Posted by baumare

Yes, let's blame him

Yes sure, I know that service cases starts with 4.4XX.XXX, but this is not what I meant, just for discussion let me explain better:

Attachment 1240079

Could be 4.7XX.XXX and not 47X.XXX or there is not enough space?

I understood what you are asking but the OP specifically stated it was 47X,XXX (assume he was told this or he has seen it in the flesh). Also the service case 4 digit engraving doesn't look like this.

[alwayshere]

Originally Posted by franzumb

Here are some better pics

you'll have to do your own research now.

There is a good site that covers the 5512/5513 dial variations if you google it.

Good luck.

[franzumb]

Originally Posted by alwayshere

you'll have to do your own research now.

There is a good site that covers the 5512/5513 dial variations if you google it.

Good luck.

Yup, from what I gather it is most likely a matte MF dial. Nothing jumps at me as fake initially.

Thanks.

[Fredrik]

Originally Posted by alwayshere

I blame Fredrik for taking us down the wrong path haha

I think you might be getting the digits mixed up here.

Service cases generally are 4,4XX,XXX (and not 4,7XX,XXX anyway)
OP's case is 47X,XXX

So its not trying to be a service case.

Oh, crap, sorry about that. I had a vague recollection of service cases having _both_ 4.4M and 4.7M serials and just wanted to be sure that the seller didn't misread it for being six digits when it could have been seven digits...

The font on late service cases is definitely different, but early service cases could have a 70s font. Anyway, looking closer at the pictures it is probably six digits.

[1675-David]

this is not a service case, it's a fake case. Dial is unattractive but looks OK from these images.