Franken/fake oyster “sotto” daytona (rco) at christie’s hong kong

[L.K Johnson]

Thoughts?



https://perezcope.com/2021/09/23/fra...ies-hong-kong/

[TimeLord2]

My thoughts.
Good luck and may the Force be with you. Always…
When purchasing extremely rare vintage.

[CTech]

This is the link to the Christie's listing:

https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/n...readcrumb=back

and it shows the opening bid to be HKD 8,500,000, about US $1.1 million. There are no bidders yet with 4 days to go.

The work that perezcope does is phenomenal but it is unfortunate that some of the major auction houses refuse to accept his findings and continue to try and sell these made up watches at ridiculously high prices.

I think he did some articles about Antiquorum a while ago exposing some of their more unsavory manipulations, but it didn't seem to have any real effect in stopping the proliferation of fakes, replicas, frankenwatches, etc. coming up in various auctions.

This Daytona RCO "Sotto" is claimed to have come from the collection of Mr Shawn Yue, who I think is Shawn Yue Man-lok, a Hong Kong singer/actor. It would be interesting to know if he bought the watch like this or if he was behind the conversion of a lesser model into this, as detailed in the perezscope article.

[rolexest]

As much as I love vintage, who the hell knows what you're actually getting. I tend to stay as far away possible.

[dhknola]

Huzzah to Perezscope on this find! Amazing what 'reputable' auction houses will attempt to pass off.

[roh123]

Dial swapping in Daytonas is very common and have been for a very long time. People move FAP, Trop or newmans into more expensive references. Usually from steel bezel to bakelite. It has probably also been a good way to hide away stolen pieces as well.

The big question here for me is if it was an oyster sotto dial or not to begin with. It is surprising, or not, to see big auction houses ”miss” things like this when the internet shares so much data.

[alwayshere]

Its amazing what Perezcope has done on his analysis. Kudos for the detective work!

[Wahlberg]

Again job well done!

The hoops people jump through to make some money. I understand it, but it's fraudulent behaviour.

[snakeeyes]

Originally Posted by Wahlberg

Again job well done!

The hoops people jump through to make some money. I understand it, but it's fraudulent behaviour.

Yes but why even bother going to the trouble. There is so much easily locatable historical information about high end watches, previous listings etc. Some of these results are a mere google search away.

[Wahlberg]

Originally Posted by snakeeyes

Yes but why even bother going to the trouble. There is so much easily locatable historical information about high end watches, previous listings etc. Some of these results are a mere google search away.

But who is going after who in the end? Who swapped everything, the vintage concept?


Does anyone know where can you source a period correct Daytona movement? And at what price?

[alllexandru]

Interesting find, kudos for Perezcope, my question is what could you trust these days?
Dont remeber where I read an US rapper bought a PP fake from an established grey dealer , busted on instagram , paid 400k...

[Wahlberg]

Originally Posted by alllexandru

Interesting find, kudos for Perezcope, my question is what could you trust these days?
Dont remeber where I read an US rapper bought a PP fake from an established grey dealer , busted on instagram , paid 400k...

He got his 400k back from that dealer/jewelry shop.

[alllexandru]

Originally Posted by Wahlberg

He got his 400k back from that dealer/jewelry shop.

Correct but only after posing on IG to find out that was fake, got also 4 diamond rings from the dealer as bonus

But what if no one noticed, isnt suppose that these dealers/auction houses do their diligence ? You are paying a premium after all

My question is : Where is the trust these days? Who do you trust..?

[Tavli3]

I call him Columbo. For those unfamiliar with the name Columbo was a famous TV detective in the 70s that always got the bad guy by uncovering numerous obscure pieces of evidence.

But help me out here. Something is not making sense. It’s seems that he is saying the dial is legit which is where all the value is. But according to the vintage high counsel there is doubt that the MK 2 exists. But it was acknowledged that there is a 2.8M MK2 in existence. And apparently this another one. So why take it out of its natural home and put it into the wrong case thus destroying its value.

If these MK 2s are out there then they’re out there. Just because they’re super rare doesn’t mean they are fakes. Why the shenanigans unless the MK 2s are forgeries. But no one has proven that yet as far as I understand it. Just conjecture.

Seems odd that there’s no definitive opinion on MK2 dials.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[baumare]

Originally Posted by Tavli3

I call him Columbo. For those unfamiliar with the name Columbo was a famous TV detective in the 70s that always got the bad guy by uncovering numerous obscure pieces of evidence.

But help me out here. Something is not making sense. It’s seems that he is saying the dial is legit which is where all the value is. But according to the vintage high counsel there is doubt that the MK 2 exists. But it was acknowledged that there is a 2.8M MK2 in existence. And apparently this another one. So why take it out of its natural home and put it into the wrong case thus destroying its value.

If these MK 2s are out there then they’re out there. Just because they’re super rare doesn’t mean they are fakes. Why the shenanigans unless the MK 2s are forgeries. But no one has proven that yet as far as I understand it. Just conjecture.

Seems odd that there’s no definitive opinion on MK2 dials.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My understanding is that the rare dial was in a case without papers, so to ad value was move it in a case with documents and became full set

[Ascari_2]

[edit] Nevermind.

[214270Explorer]

Jeebus !!!

[Vintageous]

Originally Posted by baumare

My understanding is that the rare dial was in a case without papers, so to ad value was move it in a case with documents and became full set

So if I put the rarest dial in the rarest original matching case with the rarest correct movement, crown, case-back, strap etc. I would have a +15Mio legitimate rolex??
These practices can/do damage our vintage watches market reputation :-(

[rootbeer7]

Originally Posted by Tavli3

I call him Columbo. For those unfamiliar with the name Columbo was a famous TV detective in the 70s that always got the bad guy by uncovering numerous obscure pieces of evidence.

But help me out here. Something is not making sense. It’s seems that he is saying the dial is legit which is where all the value is. But according to the vintage high counsel there is doubt that the MK 2 exists. But it was acknowledged that there is a 2.8M MK2 in existence. And apparently this another one. So why take it out of its natural home and put it into the wrong case thus destroying its value.

If these MK 2s are out there then they’re out there. Just because they’re super rare doesn’t mean they are fakes. Why the shenanigans unless the MK 2s are forgeries. But no one has proven that yet as far as I understand it. Just conjecture.

Seems odd that there’s no definitive opinion on MK2 dials.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There is a suggestion the dial is also questionable

[rootbeer7]

Originally Posted by Vintageous

So if I put the rarest dial in the rarest original matching case with the rarest correct movement, crown, case-back, strap etc. I would have a +15Mio legitimate rolex??
These practices can/do damage our vintage watches market reputation :-(

Many believe the tri-colour Paul Newman dial never originally started out in the screw-down cases. They believe they are also created by mixing 2 of the most desirable features to create the perfect watch for sale.

[Tavli3]

Well that’s my issue is it or isn’t it. If it’s fake why bother swapping the movement just pop in the fraud dial and be done. Not that much work to remove hands. If they did that it would be harder to prove it as a scam since the movement would be correct for SN and there’s no definitive opinion on the dial


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[roh123]

Originally Posted by baumare

My understanding is that the rare dial was in a case without papers, so to ad value was move it in a case with documents and became full set

No. It was out in an early 2.1 serial as that is where RCO’s belong. This dial is questionable as it could be a 6240 dial with later Oyster print.

[inadeje]

Many decry perezscope, but I find his work brilliant

[Tavli3]

Originally Posted by roh123

No. It was out in an early 2.1 serial as that is where RCO’s belong. This dial is questionable as it could be a 6240 dial with later Oyster print.

I think if there was a molecule out of place with the Oyster print perezscope would have spotted it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hankit]

I was surprise when the article posted about the watch that came from Hong Kong shop.

Most singer/actor locally and fed with these high end pieces and rolling them to think its a fully background check legit piece.

That shop had the watch for a very very long time along with another PN that sits in the shop for ages. I have question myself, it's legit, why the hell its still there...High roller will just fly in by private jet carry it home...

I remember there was another article that he busted a questionable prototype Pam, that ended up in circle where they need to refund the purchase...

I always think any 4 digit daytona is dangerous business....alot of people assume they have original pieces ended up to be Legit swap dress up pieces..

[LJubel328]

My first watch purchase was a vintage Rolex. After evening burnt on a 1675 chapter ring, and reading similar stories to this, I have moved away from purchasing vi rage.

A shame cause I do truly love the vintage aesthetics.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[L.K Johnson]

Originally Posted by LJubel328

My first watch purchase was a vintage Rolex. After evening burnt on a 1675 chapter ring, and reading similar stories to this, I have moved away from purchasing vi rage.

A shame cause I do truly love the vintage aesthetics.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ref. 1601 is the way to go! Minimal frankens and fakes out there…

[swish77]

Major auction houses should just hire Perezscope as a consultant to go over these high-end pieces in advance. The guy’s Sherlock Holmes.

As for watch lovers who are scared away from vintage by stories like this, I see it as the complete opposite. You should be comforted by knowing that even the tiniest questionable details of these vintage Rolexes can be sniffed out nowadays.

There is so, so much information available online about the history of vintage Rolexes, and all the different variations and microscopic details of the watches. Never before has there been this much attention paid to the details because of the money involved. That’s a good thing and helps us true vintage enthusiasts. It just means we need to do even more homework and perhaps solicit the help of the community more.

[L.K Johnson]

Originally Posted by swish77

Major auction houses should just hire Perezscope as a consultant to go over these high-end pieces in advance. The guy’s Sherlock Holmes.

As for watch lovers who are scared away from vintage by stories like this, I see it as the complete opposite. You should be comforted by knowing that even the tiniest questionable details of these vintage Rolexes can be sniffed out nowadays.

There is so, so much information available online about the history of vintage Rolexes, and all the different variations and microscopic details of the watches. Never before has there been this much attention paid to the details because of the money involved. That’s a good thing and helps us true vintage enthusiasts. It just means we need to do even more homework and perhaps solicit the help of the community more.

Word! Great input!

[swaini3]

Originally Posted by swish77

Major auction houses should just hire Perezscope as a consultant to go over these high-end pieces in advance. The guy’s Sherlock Holmes.

As for watch lovers who are scared away from vintage by stories like this, I see it as the complete opposite. You should be comforted by knowing that even the tiniest questionable details of these vintage Rolexes can be sniffed out nowadays.

There is so, so much information available online about the history of vintage Rolexes, and all the different variations and microscopic details of the watches. Never before has there been this much attention paid to the details because of the money involved. That’s a good thing and helps us true vintage enthusiasts. It just means we need to do even more homework and perhaps solicit the help of the community more.

Well said.... Its also great that experienced members share their input here and on other forums when someone has doubts about something.