Was I just scammed?

[icecubee]

So I just received this Tudor Prince Oysterdate, ref 90734 from 1981, 34mm, 19mm lug width. The jubilee bracelet struck me as off and upon further inspection it strikes me as bad, especially the "punching" of the Tudor shield and the text "GENEVA SWITZERLAND". This makes me wonder about the authenticity of the watch itself. End clasps are stamped with "455B" which seems to belong to the two tone version...

What do you all think?

The money is still in escrow @chrono24 and according to their rules the "authentic guarantee" is void if the watch is opened which seems weird since an ad/Watch maker would have to open it up to guarantee authenticity?

Anyhow here are some photos:

[CTech]

The watch head might be perfectly fine as it compares well to other ones for sale, but I agree that the bracelet is suspect in many areas.

You could try and authenticate the watch head without opening up the case, for example by asking a jeweler to test if the bezel is white gold. It looks to be a genuine gold bezel but it is a quick test to determine if it is gold and that could be useful.

If there is any doubt about the watch, I would recommend you return it as it probably will never make you happy, even if you found another genuine bracelet for it.

[icecubee]

Originally Posted by CTech

The watch head might be perfectly fine as it compares well to other ones for sale, but I agree that the bracelet is suspect in many areas.

You could try and authenticate the watch head without opening up the case, for example by asking a jeweler to test if the bezel is white gold. It looks to be a genuine gold bezel but it is a quick test to determine if it is gold and that could be useful.

If there is any doubt about the watch, I would recommend you return it as it probably will never make you happy, even if you found another genuine bracelet for it.

Yea was thinking that the watch might be ok but on the other hand I paid quite alot for this one so would really like for it to have a genuine bracelet.

Also to my eyes 6 o clock is not properly aligned with the center dial and the tudor shield?

[linesiders]

Watch head looks OK for what it is, a 1981/82 Dress Date.

Bracelet is out of my wheelhouse.

[214270Explorer]

As I posted over at WUS, the bracelet may be an aftermarket of some sort? Certain aspects look off for Tudor.
Watch - I do see something suspicious, but that is not within my expertise regarding this model of this age.
You should have it opened and evaluated by a real expert.

[Chris75]

Head is ok, bracelet is not.

[Old Expat Beast]

Here's another bracelet with the same ref and date stamp for comparison.

https://www.chrono-shop.net/en/a-r-c...ll-models.html

[offrdmania]

To me, the bracelet just looks like it has been polished down so far that the letters are starting to deform

[indianmachine]

not sure about authenticity, but the watch head looks pretty polished down so you may consider finding a better example esp if it was expensive

[icecubee]

Originally Posted by CTech

The watch head might be perfectly fine as it compares well to other ones for sale, but I agree that the bracelet is suspect in many areas.

You could try and authenticate the watch head without opening up the case, for example by asking a jeweler to test if the bezel is white gold. It looks to be a genuine gold bezel but it is a quick test to determine if it is gold and that could be useful.

If there is any doubt about the watch, I would recommend you return it as it probably will never make you happy, even if you found another genuine bracelet for it.

Thanks, handed over the watchbto a autorized tudor/rolex service centre today for authentication.

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Here's another bracelet with the same ref and date stamp for comparison.

https://www.chrono-shop.net/en/a-r-c...ll-models.html

Yea saw that one, "GENEVA SWITZERLAND" text on inside of clasp.looks.much more legible and the end clasps are stamped with "555" as opposed to mine which are stamped with "445b" (which according to some posts here is the code for the two tone bracelet and usually seen on aftermarket bracelets)

[harry in montreal]

Bracelet is fake. The clasp shield.... very puffy and lacks sharp edges. Pretty much all that should be discussed openly

[Tools]

Originally Posted by icecubee

. . . as opposed to mine which are stamped with "445b" (which according to some posts here is the code for the two tone bracelet and usually seen on aftermarket bracelets)

455b end links are Two Tone Jubilee numbers. Don't know what 445b would be.

Saying that you were scammed would likely be a strong approach. Not everybody would know the difference with original and counterfeit parts

[icecubee]

Originally Posted by Tools

455b end links are Two Tone Jubilee numbers. Don't know what 445b would be.

Saying that you were scammed would likely be a strong approach. Not everybody would know the difference with original and counterfeit parts

My bad, its stamped with 455b!Not saying I was scammed but merely asking :)

See photo from chrono24 listing:

[motoikkyu]

My two cents: bezel looks "off" to me - case is rather soft with wear or polish, bezel is very crisp, could very well be authentic replacement.

Bracelet is solidly beyond my questionable expertise.

[NickD1975]

Originally Posted by harry in montreal

Bracelet is fake. The clasp shield.... very puffy and lacks sharp edges. Pretty much all that should be discussed openly

Because god forbid we actually learn something.

Not singling you out in particular, but this forum is terrible at sharing knowledge, unlike every other one I've ever been a member of. I get that people don't want to educate a (very small) number of fakers who may be on the forum, but surely its better to educate the masses? Otherwise neophytes will constantly be caught out by things they could have spotted fairly easily?

[swish77]

Originally Posted by NickD1975

This forum is terrible at sharing knowledge, unlike every other one I've ever been a member of. I get that people don't want to educate a (very small) number of fakers who may be on the forum, but surely its better to educate the masses? Otherwise neophytes will constantly be caught out by things they could have spotted fairly easily?

I disagree. This forum is great at sharing (free) knowledge and has saved countless watch lovers tons of money by keeping them from buying bad or fake vintage Rolexes and parts through the years.

Certain details should not be shared, though, for obvious reasons, and I think there are a lot more "fakers" out there than you think.

Also, anyone can determine fakes themselves by studying other legitimate examples. It's not rocket science. How do you think a lot of us learned how to spot the bad stuff in the first place? Just a lot of homework.

[NickD1975]

Originally Posted by swish77

I disagree. This forum is great at sharing (free) knowledge and has saved countless watch lovers tons of money by keeping them from buying bad or fake vintage Rolexes and parts through the years.

Certain details should not be shared, though, for obvious reasons, and I think there are a lot more "fakers" out there than you think.

Also, anyone can determine fakes themselves by studying other legitimate examples. It's not rocket science. How do you think a lot of us learned how to spot the bad stuff in the first place? Just a lot of homework.

This forum is good at sharing opinions, but not knowledge. And those opinions will vary in their accuracy. I've seen plenty of genuine watches branded as fakes by people who have a little knowledge, but not enough. Not everyone is going to be able to parse who knows what they are talking about and who isn't.

Sure, having a fake and a real example of a watch in hand, I'd be pretty sure I could tell which was fake, but there are things I definitely miss in pictures, and it would be nice to know what those are so I had the knowledge to work out what is right and what isn't.

Don't get me wrong, I've been very grateful for forum member's opinions when I've made posts, but in threads like this not pointing out issues is counterproductive IMHO. The replica makers aren't honestly going to be interested in what isn't right on a decades old aftermarket Tudor bracelet, but genuine enthusiasts might.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by NickD1975

This forum is good at sharing opinions, but not knowledge. And those opinions will vary in their accuracy. I've seen plenty of genuine watches branded as fakes by people who have a little knowledge, but not enough. Not everyone is going to be able to parse who knows what they are talking about and who isn't.

If you think that people don't know what they're talking about, then why do you think it would be helpful for them to share their opinions about the bracelet? And unless you have the same bracelet (or you are the seller), why does it matter so much to you? I agree that some people on the forum know more than others. Why complain about what information people are willing or unwilling to provide? Isn't it better to participate, contribute, make relationships, and continue to learn. Then if you have a specific question, you can reach out discreetly by PM to the people whose opinions you really respect, and they will be willing to help you.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by NickD1975

This forum is good at sharing opinions, but not knowledge. And those opinions will vary in their accuracy.

With all due respect, this is splitting hairs. Every "opinion" is inherently filled with "knowledge."

There are plenty of people on this forum who spend a lot of their own time helping others by sharing their opinions/knowledge about old watches. Remember, it's free, so criticism about it seems misplaced, IMHO.

And yes, accuracy varies here and on every forum. Even the best experts in the world get fooled once in a while.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Dan S

If you think that people don't know what they're talking about, then why do you think it would be helpful for them to share their opinions about the bracelet? And unless you have the same bracelet (or you are the seller), why does it matter so much to you? I agree that some people on the forum know more than others. Why complain about what information people are willing or unwilling to provide? Isn't it better to participate, contribute, make relationships, and continue to learn. Then if you have a specific question, you can reach out discreetly by PM to the people whose opinions you really respect, and they will be willing to help you.

I have always found your comments along with tools and miami clay, just to name 2 there are others, that have helped me come to an informed opinion on a watch.

I must admit i have seen your knowledge abused in my opinion by 1st posters, who post obvious fakes inherited from their 'grandpappies' lol. But you still take the time to answer i would to thank all those who have helped in the past and hopefully in the future.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by Chris

I have always found your comments along with tools and miami clay, just to name 2 there are others, that have helped me come to an informed opinion on a watch.

I must admit i have seen your knowledge abused in my opinion by 1st posters, who post obvious fakes inherited from their 'grandpappies' lol. But you still take the time to answer i would to thank all those who have helped in the past and hopefully in the future.

That's kind of you to say, and I'm happy to help out when the questions are easy/obvious, but honestly my knowledge is pretty superficial since I am a generalist as a watch collector. I am mainly here to learn from the real Rolex experts.

[icecubee]

FIY both watch and braclet are authentic according to the official Rolex/tudor AD&service centre I brought it to here in Stockholm. He did though suspect that the bracelet might have been "renovated".

Oh and the end links didn't even fit the watch so there's that...

Original ad:
Tudor Prince Oysterdate
£1,680
https://chrono24.app/tudor/prince-oy...GB&SETCURR=GBP

Seller refuses to make a discount on the price due to end links not fitting, according to him.this is my fault for not asking (wtf?)

Chrono24 could reimburse me 100eur for this but that's not even enough for a pair of genuine end links lol. First and last time I bought a watch from a private seller online...

[dannyp]

Bracelet just looks way over polished to me. See how many fewer scratches it has than the watch (particularly the case back). Clasp looks super rounded at the corners, too. This would also explain why the text on the blades is still crisp while the shield stamping on the outside looks soft.

I agree that the bezel appears to be WG, given the difference in hue compared to the rest of the watch.

The last question that would at least in part drive my thinking: Were Tudors in the 80s faked with great frequency? Rolexes, certainly, but I thought the "replica" game started a lot later with other brands.

[Mark020]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Here's another bracelet with the same ref and date stamp for comparison.

https://www.chrono-shop.net/en/a-r-c...ll-models.html

Well I would not use that seller for that

[harry in montreal]

NickD,
There are many people faking lots of Tudors. eBay lets thé fakes run and won’t stop the auctions even when I tell them. I pointed out a clear sign of why it’s fake, but I won’t direct it because the fakes keep getting better and Likeky thé read comments on this forum.

Now, let’s talk about your attitude.... It’s about as poor as the embossed clasp on that Tudor. You did single me out, so allow me to give you some more detailed advice since you need it. You can learn to do research on your own, or maybe you cannot figure it out or you are lazy. I’m happy to respond to private emails in great detail. But not from you. Cheers mate !

[harry in montreal]

The stamping on the endlinks do no look good. Have a look at the deep numbers Rolex places on 455Bs. These look like a pair from a place other than Switzerland. For 1700 you should keep looking. I would pass

[icecubee]

Originally Posted by harry in montreal

The stamping on the endlinks do no look good. Have a look at the deep numbers Rolex places on 455Bs. These look like a pair from a place other than Switzerland. For 1700 you should keep looking. I would pass

Well I already bought it and a autorized Rolex/Tudor dealer authenticated the watch and bracelet today (cost me another 150 eur). Dont know what to do tbh

[harry in montreal]

Well, let’s see what other folks say. Here is an end link with super crisp stamping of the code. Look at the last image in particular. This is what I look at when evaluating the links. On the band clasp there is a stamp of the model 6248 is also a date code. Notice how they look very similar in depth and clarity? In my opinion, the date code is never stamped at the same time, the date code should always Duffer in depth and clarity because it was done at a diff point in time. Look at other bands for sale on this site by the sellers. You may come to the same conclusion. Anyway, the watch head looks ok to me.

[harry in montreal]

Here is the nice set of endlinks in the FS section
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=824310

[icecubee]

Originally Posted by harry in montreal

Well, let’s see what other folks say. Here is an end link with super crisp stamping of the code. Look at the last image in particular. This is what I look at when evaluating the links. On the band clasp there is a stamp of the model 6248 is also a date code. Notice how they look very similar in depth and clarity? In my opinion, the date code is never stamped at the same time, the date code should always Duffer in depth and clarity because it was done at a diff point in time. Look at other bands for sale on this site by the sellers. You may come to the same conclusion. Anyway, the watch head looks ok to me.

Originally Posted by harry in montreal

Here is the nice set of endlinks in the FS section
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=824310

Thanks you so much, this is very helpful!

Here are two photos I just took of the included end links that do not fi




What end links do I need (code) that will actually fit the watch?