interesting read

[ILoveFerrari]

authenticity of Panerai in particular. Is it old news? Amendment: Is it well known among Panerai world?

I knew about the VC certain entry level model of FiftySix using Cartier movement which came from Richemont internal movement development. But I didn't know the severity of disguise is to this degree in Panerai, if the article content is true. So I am interested in your opinion about it. By the way, this is not a debate about merit of ETA obviously.

https://perezcope.com/2021/08/08/pan...-pam-of-worms/

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[gmtmister]

Given it’s from 2021 yes, that would make it old news.

[ILoveFerrari]

Originally Posted by Ale

Given it’s from 2021 yes, that would make it old news.

oh assuming you knew about it, what is your opinion about it?

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[GB-man]

Yeah it’s been discussed ad nauseum but that doesn’t mean everyone here today knows. Panerai had so many advantages they pissed away over the last ten years. It’s embarrassing.

[S``]

Their service center/boutique is horrendous to deal with... Can't publish the deeds yet, but it's a nightmare so far

[ILoveFerrari]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Yeah it’s been discussed ad nauseum but that doesn’t mean everyone here today knows. Panerai had so many advantages they pissed away over the last ten years. It’s embarrassing.

Thanks! that would only make sense. I never had a Panerai but saw a white monochromatic one today online that piques my interest. When I googled its p900 movement, I ran into this article which opened up my eyes to the Panerai world. A ETA chronograph movement is only $500 USD!

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[yoast]

Google pam 318

[dchang81]

I get the negative posts about panerai, but the guy seems to have a personal vendetta. Posts the same crap ad nauseam

[ILoveFerrari]

Originally Posted by dchang81

I get the negative posts about panerai, but the guy seems to have a personal vendetta. Posts the same crap ad nauseam

Are you referring to me. It's my first time asking about it, as I just learned about it.

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[gmtmister]

Originally Posted by ilovegt

oh assuming you knew about it, what is your opinion about it?

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My opinion is that it’s crazy a company of that stature is able to continue business as is, given the repeated examples of sub par practices both in watch build execution and and handling of watches for repair, let alone the shady promotional blurbs that hide the truth.

I wish I could add a Panerai to my collection, but I simply don’t feel ok with paying that much for something so doomed.

[charger_vital]

I've heard about the ETA movements in Panerai, but this article is eye opening for the number of other examples given re: "out-house" (TM) parts. Thanks for sharing.

That said, I still want one as a beater if I could find one cheap. They are cool looking... even if that's all they are.

[dchang81]

Originally Posted by ilovegt

Are you referring to me. It's my first time asking about it, as I just learned about it.

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Referring to Perez, he posts directing traffic to his site

[ILoveFerrari]

Originally Posted by dchang81

Referring to Perez, he posts directing traffic to his site

I got the same feeling too when I read it, but spending 10k on a watch then finding out it's movement is only 500 bucks would make me pissed too.

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[Cru Jones]

The author of that blog is the king of unsubstantiated hearsay and sour grapes. Just because it’s on a blog doesn’t mean it’s true. ;-)

[brandrea]

Cue the Panerai haters

[S``]

Originally Posted by brandrea

Cue the Panerai haters

Only richemont can turn fans into haters. True story

[K7Baixo2]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

I've heard about the ETA movements in Panerai, but this article is eye opening for the number of other examples given re: "out-house" (TM) parts. Thanks for sharing.

That said, I still want one as a beater if I could find one cheap. They are cool looking... even if that's all they are.

Originally Posted by ilovegt

I got the same feeling too when I read it, but spending 10k on a watch then finding out it's movement is only 500 bucks would make me pissed too.

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Here’s a Panerai and a 6497 that I assembled literally from a tray of parts. Same movement, higher grade though.

[ILoveFerrari]

Originally Posted by K7Baixo2

Here’s a Panerai and a 6497 that I assembled literally from a tray of parts. Same movement, higher grade though.

huh? you mean you built a watch yourself using similar and better parts??

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[ILoveFerrari]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

The author of that blog is the king of unsubstantiated hearsay and sour grapes. Just because it’s on a blog doesn’t mean it’s true. ;-)

I agree with you, as anyone can write anything online. But in this case, the blog author is running an extremely high risk of libel against an entity with deep pocket. Also the author seems to back up the claim with logic and evidence in pictures.

So I am quite not sure in this case, so I wanna see what everyone thinks.

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[K7Baixo2]

Originally Posted by ilovegt

huh? you mean you built a watch yourself using similar and better parts??

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I’m not sure if I’d go that far. As part of an AWCI watchbuilding class, we each assembled our own 6497 movement, regulated it, cased it, check for water resistance, and added a strap. This was done under the watchful eyes of two instructors. It was a great day!

A week or two later, we visited Oliver Smith in Scottsdale and I compared my watch to the Panerai that they had in-stock. I also tried on a Blancpain Fifty Fathoms which I ultimately purchased a few weeks later.

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by ilovegt

I agree with you, as anyone can write anything online. But in this case, the blog author is running an extremely high risk of libel against an entity with deep pocket. Also the author seems to back up the claim with logic and evidence in pictures.

So I am quite not sure in this case, so I wanna see what everyone thinks.

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I’m not sure there’s much evidence or logic in what he writes.

Read Jose's posts and spot the "facts"...It's all hearsay and "my brother's hairdresser's aunt said..."


* "there are reports that the Panerai boutiques themselves told prospective buyers the P.9200 was a “manufacture” caliber."

- No facts - just hearsay.

* "According to a reliable brand insider, the boutiques were instructed to tell their customers the P.9200 is an in-house movement, a directive that came from the very top"

- No facts - just hearsay.

* "Jory Goodman aka The Time Teller chatted via Panerai website with sales associates in the United States (from 5:22) and received the following answer on whether the P.9200 is an in-house movement"

- No facts - just hearsay.

* "When the story first broke on July 24, 2021, a concerned Panerai collector from the Middle East reached out to Panerai CEO Jean-Marc Pontroué to propose a strategy on how to deal with this situation. As you can see in the screenshot below from the collector’s Instagram story, Pontroué commited to make amendments to the website."

- No facts - just hearsay.

* "As I have been made aware, several Panerai employees are extremely upset with what has occured and are considering leaving the company for good."

- No facts - just hearsay.

* "My guess is the overall cost of a printed sapphire crystal is around 1/5 of the cost of the saved amount of gold. "

- No facts - Jose admits it's just a guess.

* "An experienced Swiss watchmaker who serviced a number of “in-house” Panerai movements made by ValFleurier pointed out the industrially produced movements lack in quality. A good example is the pallet fork bridge which is a punched and press-formed metal sheet (left) instead of a properly machined and adorned part (right, Rolex 3135)."

- No facts - just hearsay.

* "Certain details of Panerai’s manufacture calibers reminded the watchmaker of mass produced calibers made in the Soviet Union, but even those had better pallet fork bridges according to him. Another example is the P.5000 with its cheap pillar construction known from unrefined table clock movements. The P.5000 has the very same pallet fork bridge as the P.9000."

- No facts - just hearsay.

* "The watches Panerai has become famous for were originally designed by Rolex and were in fact Rolex Oyster watches. As a matter of fact, Giuseppe Panerai himself referred to them as Rolex watches in service invoices, etc."

- No facts - just Jose writing stuff.

* "This was done to deflect from the fact that Richemont Panerai was effectively producing replicas of vintage Rolex watches. The collage below shows the caseback stamps of all references used by the Italian Navy between 1935 and 1955 (Ref. 2533 same as early 3646)."



Let me give it a try:

I recently discussed this point with my Panerai rep - he confirmed that Panerai was forced by Rolex to stamp case backs in this fashion in order to be provided Rolex's movements.

- Do you see how easy it is to make stuff up about photos? What I wrote above is just as believable as Jose's meandering fiction. His articles are pure click-bait.

* "The only thing Panerai truly contributed to “watchmaking” is the half-moon shaped crown-protecting device from 1956. In essence, Panerai was a crown guard attached to a Rolex watch. That is all it ever was and out of this thin air – this horological nothing – Richemont created a fantasy brand which today has boutiques all over the world."

- Okay. But, the device protecting the crown is the signature element of Panerai watches. Panerai has never said that California dials or radium dials were developed by Panerai. Just that those elements have been a part of Panerai design for decades....Jose has a vendetta. Or he's just a troll. Or both.

[pereztroika]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

* "there are reports that the Panerai boutiques themselves told prospective buyers the P.9200 was a “manufacture” caliber."

- No facts - just hearsay.

See screenshot and follow the link to the Italian Panerai forum. The guy even replied to one of your earlier nonsensical remarks in this regard.

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

* "According to a reliable brand insider, the boutiques were instructed to tell their customers the P.9200 is an in-house movement, a directive that came from the very top"

- No facts - just hearsay.

I don't give up my sources, sorry.

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

* "Jory Goodman aka The Time Teller chatted via Panerai website with sales associates in the United States (from 5:22) and received the following answer on whether the P.9200 is an in-house movement"

- No facts - just hearsay.

Watch the video.

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

* "When the story first broke on July 24, 2021, a concerned Panerai collector from the Middle East reached out to Panerai CEO Jean-Marc Pontroué to propose a strategy on how to deal with this situation. As you can see in the screenshot below from the collector’s Instagram story, Pontroué commited to make amendments to the website."

- No facts - just hearsay.

See the screenshot and contact to the guy from Kuwait who posted it (IG: @paneristi_1981)

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

* "As I have been made aware, several Panerai employees are extremely upset with what has occured and are considering leaving the company for good."

- No facts - just hearsay.

I don't give up my sources, sorry.

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

* "My guess is the overall cost of a printed sapphire crystal is around 1/5 of the cost of the saved amount of gold. "

- No facts - Jose admits it's just a guess.

Use your brain.

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

* "An experienced Swiss watchmaker who serviced a number of “in-house” Panerai movements made by ValFleurier pointed out the industrially produced movements lack in quality. A good example is the pallet fork bridge which is a punched and press-formed metal sheet (left) instead of a properly machined and adorned part (right, Rolex 3135)."

- No facts - just hearsay.

See for yourself. There is a picture of the stamped and press-formed pallet fork bridge.

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

* "Certain details of Panerai’s manufacture calibers reminded the watchmaker of mass produced calibers made in the Soviet Union, but even those had better pallet fork bridges according to him. Another example is the P.5000 with its cheap pillar construction known from unrefined table clock movements. The P.5000 has the very same pallet fork bridge as the P.9000."

- No facts - just hearsay.

See for yourself. There is a picture of the stamped and press-formed pallet fork bridge.

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

* "The watches Panerai has become famous for were originally designed by Rolex and were in fact Rolex Oyster watches. As a matter of fact, Giuseppe Panerai himself referred to them as Rolex watches in service invoices, etc."

- No facts - just Jose writing stuff.

Follow the link. There is an actual scan of the service invoice from 1955 in which the watch is clearly stated as Rolex watch (Orologio Rolex).

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

* "This was done to deflect from the fact that Richemont Panerai was effectively producing replicas of vintage Rolex watches. The collage below shows the caseback stamps of all references used by the Italian Navy between 1935 and 1955 (Ref. 2533 same as early 3646)."

There are pictures of the casebacks. See for yourself.






Cru, as somebody pointed out in an earlier discussion, hearsay probably doesn't mean what you think it does – but yeah, do NOT trust your own eyes, rather believe a faceless guy hiding behind a pseudonym.

Cheers
Jose

[bonovox]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Yeah it’s been discussed ad nauseum but that doesn’t mean everyone here today knows. Panerai had so many advantages they pissed away over the last ten years. It’s embarrassing.

This about sums it up.

[dchang81]

Lol, keep advertising your site on here.....

[kunlun]

Originally Posted by dchang81

Lol, keep advertising your site on here.....

You are embarrassing yourself.

Jose is doing our community a service and he's put in the work. His articles speak for themselves.

[ILoveFerrari]

Originally Posted by kunlun

You are embarrassing yourself.



Jose is doing our community a service and he's put in the work. His articles speak for themselves.

I for one appreciated the information a lot Redirecting back to his site is not an issue as long as his contents brings new value to me, as it did in this case.

Again I am sure most watch connoisseurs understand the horology power of non in house movement, and they are everywhere in terms of being modified by high horology brand. As long as you know what you are paying for exactly notwithstanding the sales tactics of the manufacturer, the onus is always on the customers.

But not every customer has the patience and time to do detective work or diligent homework, so I truly appreciate honest feedback and information such as this.

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[dchang81]

I get the information but seems to go to a personal vendetta level. Embarrassing myself...ok... you can talk about basically any brand, what's in house what isn't, plenty of misinformation and misdirection about their products. My new parmigiani PF has the same vaucher movement that's been around for 15 years in chopards. Bremont making a big deal about their "In house" movement that wasn't. Same thing for tag, breitling, the kenissi movements, IWC just using a mirrored layout of an existing design and calling it in house. Not sure why his expose on panerai is that big a deal.

Edit: hah maybe I am embarrassing myself can't believe I wrote this much on this topic

[pereztroika]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

Let me give it a try:

I recently discussed this point with my Panerai rep - he confirmed that Panerai was forced by Rolex to stamp case backs in this fashion in order to be provided Rolex's movements.

- Do you see how easy it is to make stuff up about photos? What I wrote above is just as believable as Jose's meandering fiction. His articles are pure click-bait.

Nice try pal but your story would make zero sense and here's why. The movements (Cal. 618) were actually made by Cortébert for Rolex. At the time, Cortébert produced movements for a variety of brands. Panerai was an experienced watch retailer. They knew the Swiss watch industry in and out. If they wanted to use Cortébert movements, they could have ordered directly from the factory and at much lower prices. I bet Cortébert would even have engraved the Panerai name if requested, just like they did for other brands (e.g. Hamilton). There was no need to go through Rolex to obtain these movements. Do you realize now, how nonsensical that story would be? But yeah, I guess a Panerai rep could come up with such nonsense. They have been making stuff up for the past 20 years after all.

Nah buddy, the simple truth is these were Rolex Oyster watches, made by Rolex and distributed to the Italian Navy through their Italian retailer G. Panerai e Figlio. Panerai had zero expertise in the manufacturing of watches. They were just a small watch repair shop. The Panerai dial became necessary to comply with strict "buy Italian" policies imposed by the fascist regime onto the armed forces in preaparation for all-out war. At least parts of the watches had to be made in Italy. A situation comparable to the famous Tornek-Rayville watches for the U.S. Navy that were nothing but Blancpain FF.

Here's a Rolex delivery note from 1939. The watches (Ref. 2533) are listed as "Oyster acier spéciales pour scaphandriers" which means special steel Oyster for divers. Another interesting detail is what is written in brackets: "cadrans fournis par la Maison PANERAJ", dials provided by Panerai.




Interstingly, the first delivery note from 1936 doesn't mention the dials at all. It can therefore be assumed, the very first 19 steel examples had Rolex dials.




And this is what those mid 1930s Rolex dials probably looked like. Remove the minute tracks and voila, there we have the Panerai dial.




Btw, pls check the current history section on the Panerai website. They quietly updated the content to match most of what I said in the past. Meandering fiction huh?


Cheers
Jose

[Cru Jones]

“It can be assumed”….. “probably looked like”…… “i don’t give up my sources”….so many facts!

By the way, here is something real for you, José. The Oxford definition for hearsay: “information received from other people which cannot be substantiated; rumour.”

Anyway, like I’ve said, it’s all entertaining. Thanks for that.

[djnick]

Jose give it a rest bud we don’t care