Deepsea Challenge — why does it have a HEV?

[Sothy]

Since the new Deepsea doesn’t have a date, it’s not meant for living underwater. So since it’s not meant for saturation diving, why does it have a HEV? My understanding is that the Helium escape valve is only needed when doing saturation diving as opposed to (impossibly) deep scuba diving. Am I missing something?

(The use of titanium opens up some interesting design options for other models like the Explorer 2, but I still like steel and gold :-).

[Old Expat Beast]

Good question. I was wondering why it's not impervious to helium intrusion with that depth rating. The Seiko Tuna Professionals did away with the HEV requirement with their ring system and one-piece cases (with a day-date window) in the 1970s and are only rated to 1,000m (although have been tested to 3,000+).

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Sothy

Since the new Deepsea doesn’t have a date, it’s not meant for living underwater. So since it’s not meant for saturation diving, why does it have a HEV? My understanding is that the Helium escape valve is only needed when doing saturation diving as opposed to (impossibly) deep scuba diving. Am I missing something?

(The use of titanium opens up some interesting design options for other models like the Explorer 2, but I still like steel and gold :-).

Having a date or not having a date makes no difference when using any watch underwater for scuba or saturation diving.Most all dive watches bought today will never see water other perhaps a shower, swim in the sea, or dip in the pool, and the max depth ratings on many of these watches will never be used by man or superman in water. The HEV is just a one way valve fully automatic on all the Rolex dive range it's only used for saturation divers who work underwater and reside at depth in dry chambers. Were they eat sleep and do all normal body functions in dive chamber at the same outside water pressure divers are working in water. The gas they breath mainly now a high helium content the gas particles are that small they can pass thought the watch crystal seals etc. And when the divers are being re-compressed to normal atmosphere pressure, any gas thats in the watches escapes through the HEV valve as they return to normal surface pressure. Otherwise the gas would expand with the rise to normal atmospheric pressure, and the weakest point the crystal would most probably explode. A normal scuba diver would have no need to use the HEV on any watch. Think of it this way take a balloon down to 10m under water. That's 2 atmospheres one water pressure one surface air pressure. Now fill that balloon with air at that pressure of 2 atmospheres. Now because the compressed air is now under-pressure and quite dense. You can fill it but the amount of air breathing gas content would be twice as much as normal above water on the surface. Now release that balloon and let it go back to the surface because of the return to one atmosphere surface pressure balloon would expand and burst simply because there was twice as much air in it at normal surface air pressure.

[Biginboca]

Originally Posted by padi56

Having a date or not having a date makes no difference when using any watch underwater for scuba or saturation diving.Most all dive watches bought today will never see water other perhaps a shower, swim in the sea, or dip in the pool, and the max depth ratings on many of these watches will never be used by man or superman in water. The HEV is just a one way valve fully automatic on all the Rolex dive range it's only used for saturation divers who work underwater and reside at depth in dry chambers. Were they eat sleep and do all normal body functions chamber at the same outside water pressure divers are working in water. The gas they breath mainly now a high helium content the gas particles are that small they can pass thought the watch crystal seals etc. And when the divers are being re-compressed to normal atmosphere pressure, any gas thats in the watches escapes through the HEV valve as they return to normal surface pressure. Otherwise the gas would expand with the rise to normal atmospheric pressure, and the weakest point the crystal would most probably explode. A normal scuba diver would have no need to use the HEV on any watch. Think of it this way take a balloon down to 10m under water. That's 2 atmospheres one water pressure one surface air pressure. Now fill that balloon with air at that pressure of 2 atmospheres. Now because the compressed air is now under-pressure and quite dense. You can fill it but the amount of air breathing gas content would be twice as much as normal above water on the surface. Now release that balloon and let it go back to the surface because of the return to one atmosphere surface pressure balloon would expand and burst simply because there was twice as much air in it at normal surface air pressure.

With all due respect, I think you missed his point. Since saturation divers live underwater for days (weeks) and spend days decompressing inside a small sealed chamber the date is actually more useful for them more than other people who experience night time and daylight changes. Spending many days 24/7 without seeing daylight makes having a date complication to keep track of it all very handy.

So it seems ironic that a dive watch which is meant for saturation would not include a date. Hence he is inferring the DSC was obviously not meant for true saturation use where watches would typically have a date function.

The only answer I can give is maybe the watch had the date complication removed to keep the watch thickness under… 24mm… lol

Frankly trying to apply common sense to this new product, well it doesn’t make sense to even try. There is no human who is going to receive any added functional benefit of the DSC over another Seadweller that was already in production. Is there anyone here who needs a watch built strictly so they can only fully utilize it by strapping it to the outside of a submersible? What is the point of building a watch for that purpose? None of it makes sense lol

The SD43 makes sense it has the HEV, a very legible date, and goes plenty deep enough to more than cover the limits for human endurance underwater, and is packaged in a size that makes it much less cumbersome.

A grade 5 titanium seadweller with 1000m depth, a date, HEV, and smaller sizing (40-42mm) would have been a great addition that covers what a Saturation diver would really want to use instead of the monstrosity DSC.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Biginboca

With all due respect, I think you missed his point. Since saturation divers live underwater for days (weeks) and spend days decompressing inside a small sealed chamber the date is useful for them more than other people who experience night time and daylight changes. Spending many days 24/7 without seeing daylight makes having a date complication to keep track of it all very handy.

So it seems ironic that a dive watch which is meant for saturation would not include a date.

The only answer I can give is the date complication was removed to keep the watch thickness under… 26mm… lol

Well in the dive chamber its just like small house and will have full lighting, clocks beds and many of normal surface items and not like a single diver decompression chamber, there could be as many as 6 or more divers all living in the chamber, in most cases say chamber attached to a oil rig. And when working in water divers mostly in contact by radio and have dive computers to tell them when to return to chamber .And the cal 3230 is exactly the same thickness as the cal 3325.

[fskywalker]

Originally Posted by Biginboca

So it seems ironic that a dive watch which is meant for saturation would not include a date.
Frankly trying to apply common sense to this new product, well it doesn’t make sense to even try.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[saxo3]

The original 2012 Deepsea Challenge prototype had a date, but no HEV because it was mounted on the outside of the Deepsea Challenger.


2012 prototype with date but w/o HEV.

The new 2022 Deepsea Challenge (126067) has no date, but a HEV valve because it is designed for saturation dives.

A date would be logical for me too. Maybe Rolex did not want to use a 3235 (date) or 3285 (date) caliber but the 3230 (w/o date).

[Harry-57]

It's not about the watch, it's about the target customer base. Bragging rights are essential, and in fairness, some will have deep swimming pools.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Biginboca

With all due respect, I think you missed his point. Since saturation divers live underwater for days (weeks) and spend days decompressing inside a small sealed chamber the date is actually more useful for them more than other people who experience night time and daylight changes. Spending many days 24/7 without seeing daylight makes having a date complication to keep track of it all very handy.

So it seems ironic that a dive watch which is meant for saturation would not include a date. Hence he is inferring the DSC was obviously not meant for true saturation use where watches would typically have a date function.

The only answer I can give is maybe the watch had the date complication removed to keep the watch thickness under… 24mm… lol

Frankly trying to apply common sense to this new product, well it doesn’t make sense to even try. There is no human who is going to receive any added functional benefit of the DSC over another Seadweller that was already in production. Is there anyone here who needs a watch built strictly so they can only fully utilize it by strapping it to the outside of a submersible? What is the point of building a watch for that purpose? None of it makes sense lol

The SD43 makes sense it has the HEV, a very legible date, and goes plenty deep enough to more than cover the limits for human endurance underwater, and is packaged in a size that makes it much less cumbersome.

A grade 5 titanium seadweller with 1000m depth, a date, HEV, and smaller sizing (40-42mm) would have been a great addition that covers what a Saturation diver would really want to use instead of the monstrosity DSC.

The OP was a bit misleading in its title IMO.

Using your logic, there’s no need for this reference to have an HEV because no one would use it due to it not having a date. Fair enough

Peter’s point is well taken in that the watch (regardless of the date complication) is still capable of handling the depths. Fair enough

The Title of the OP should read “Deep sea challenge - why doesn’t it have a date?”

[Sothy]

Hi Brian, “Biginboca” did summarize what I meant (although perhaps my initial post wasn’t that clear). The HEV doesn’t help with WR rating, but rather with the issue of helium needing to escape from a watch case when living underwater due to work as a saturated diver. Since there is no day/night when living underwater, having a date indicator is quite useful. Therefore, the SD has always had a date. It seemed to me that having a HEV but no date needlessly introduced a potential point of failure. So I was wondering if there was a technical need for it, but Omega leaving it off of their 6000m WR watch suggests it’s there in Rolex’s case for marketing reasons? I also realize that this is very academic. Like any amateur scuba diver, I’d use less than 1 percent of the watches capabilities…was just curious.

[ippon20]

As noted the original Deepsea Challenge did not need a HEV because it was mounted on the outside of the submersible...my question is why does the new version need to be able to handle the pressure of being outside of a submersible if it's going to spend it's life inside one?

In other words....I just wish Rolex would have decided to either make the watch exactly like the original Challenge with no HEV and it's monstrous case. At the end of the day everyone has an HEV on their watch anyway as long as you could remember to unscrew the crown during decompression. :)

To best sum up the new Deepsea I equate it to the song written by Tenacious D with the Rolex spin. "This is not the greatest watch in the world, this is just a tribute".

[csaltphoto]

It's a tribute watch to showcase the technology that Rolex has contributed to deep sea exploration. The HEV was a Rolex thing to deal with helium decompression from saturation diving. The Ring Lock system was developed for the original Deep Sea project watch and incorporated into the derivative Deep Sea (which wasn't actually as capable as the project watch and has a somewhat arbitrary depth rating). This watch can actually reach the depths that Cameron did in his sub but does it in a more practically sized package than the project watch. The timing bezel is basically useless for the decompression schedules used for saturation diving but could be handy for all the regular things we use it for. Plus it wouldn't be a dive watch without one.

[Gebbeth]

I read an article which interviewed a real-life deep sea commercial diver, the ones that do oil rig repairs and regularly stay in decompression chambers and the like.

He said all watches have a helium escape valve, and it's called the crown.

Just unscrew the crown while decompressing, and voila! No crystal pop-off!

In reality, it's been shown by many manufacturers that a HEV is not necessary if you design the watch so there is no helium intrusion.

[amh]

Just be grateful it doesn't have "The Cupcake"

[Dirt]

Neither a date complication or a HEV of some description defines a watch that can be used for Saturation diving.
In the case of the Deepsea Challenge it merely tells us that even though it's configured in one way for Saturation diving, in another way it's not necessarily prioritised. Perhaps a higher priority is to enable a reduction in thickness. But I seriously doubt it because of the Ringlock architecture
This is the first example of a Sea-Dweller without a date.
It could simply be that Rolex has chosen to draw a comparison with the Omega Ultra Deep as it's also for saturation diving as they have marketed it as being impervious to Helium molecules.
In light of the Ultra Deep configuration, it could be argued that it's not optimised for it's intended purpose either as it has no date complication.

Try not to get sucked into the marketing hype and be fully subscribed to it.
The only ultimate(fully featured) watch intended for saturation diving is the Deepsea and it's not even currently compliant for general diving in accordance with the relevant international standard.
Another way to view it is to understand that the Rolex Deepsea Challenge is the only watch that Rolex makes which is fully compliant with the relevant standard. All the other Subs and Sea-dwellers aren't actually compliant whether or not they have a date function or HEV.

To be absolutely frank, I fail to grasp why it doesn't have a date function as well.
After all, it bloody well ought to be the last word on the subject. To that end, the watch should not only have the date function but it should have the lume on the dial at every hour marker which would be a walk in the park if they used the 3135 or standard 3235 because there would be room for a lume plot beside and outboard of the date window at the 3 o'clock position.
Perhaps they will be holding that back for the introduction of the Rolex Deepsea Challenge Ultimate Sea-Dweller to bring to market the finest diver watch ever made
Or as I've said before on the forum, they could simply lume the date wheel to achieve full compliance with the relevant standard.
It's really all just a big massderbate at the end of the day and the last word on it all to date has been from the Japanese to be quite frank

[wb55]

I think they went for a no date as new ISO rules (I believe) mean each hour needs to be lumed (see all the new Seikos and their reason for the awful lume at 3 o'clock) and no Rolex model AFAI has a date window and lume next to it.

Was probably done to stick to the current design language although the chamfered lugs are a very nice return.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by Gebbeth

I read an article which interviewed a real-life deep sea commercial diver, the ones that do oil rig repairs and regularly stay in decompression chambers and the like.

He said all watches have a helium escape valve, and it's called the crown.

Just unscrew the crown while decompressing, and voila! No crystal pop-off!

In reality, it's been shown by many manufacturers that a HEV is not necessary if you design the watch so there is no helium intrusion.

There is that indeed, but can it be guaranteed as seals deteriorate over time.
Besides, it was a mystery as to why those in decompression weren't simply unscrewing the crown on their watch periodically(like when the date changed) and giving it a slight wiggle sideways to allow the Helium to burp past the deformation of the seals and out of the assembly, then screw the crown back down. Then again, maybe they already tried that and it didn't work out as planned because the heavy handed ones were at risk of bending the Winding stem, or were forgetting to screw the Crown back down then unwitingly smacking it against something and ending up in the same place anyway

I can see where trying to design an assembly that prevents Helium getting in altogether is problematic as there's no guarantee that the objective has been achieved between services as I would expect that all seals are routinely replaced. A poor installation or a faulty brand new seal would be difficult to detect without a dedicated Helium intrusion test, that was applied after servicing to be able to determine if the critical threshold for Helium intrusion was met (or not).
What of the added risk factors?
How complex would servicing become?
How long would the duration of the test be for?
How much would that add to servicing costs?

It's probably more practical to go with standard seals and accept that Helium is going to leech into the assembly and service as normal then simply test for water resistance as usual and let a simple valve of some description function as intended

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by amh

Just be grateful it doesn't have "The Cupcake"

Ah, the wort.
Now that's a mystery to me as I'm informed the Omega HEV is designed to be automatic in a similar fashion to the Rolex HEV.
The wart is there as some kind of a back-up to minimise a failure in waterproofness and to fundamentally differentiate it from the Rolex design for the reasons of visuals and infringement of patents.
I did see a schematic of it somewhere
I believe the original monoblock Ploprof also had a HEV but it wasn't obvious and discretely incorporated into the design somewhere

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by wb55

I think they went for a no date as new ISO rules (I believe) mean each hour needs to be lumed (see all the new Seikos and their reason for the awful lume at 3 o'clock) and no Rolex model AFAI has a date window and lume next to it.

Was probably done to stick to the current design language although the chamfered lugs are a very nice return.

Agreed
I honestly don't know why they(Rolex) don't simply lume the date wheel with white lume? The new DSSD has a bigger date window to facilitate it and everything.
I suppose that would make it hard to read the date at night if it glowed too brightly rendering it useless for a period
Then again in all practicality, who is going to care if the date is unreadable in the darkness?

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by csaltphoto

It's a tribute watch to showcase the technology that Rolex has contributed to deep sea exploration. The HEV was a Rolex thing to deal with helium decompression from saturation diving. The Ring Lock system was developed for the original Deep Sea project watch and incorporated into the derivative Deep Sea (which wasn't actually as capable as the project watch and has a somewhat arbitrary depth rating). This watch can actually reach the depths that Cameron did in his sub but does it in a more practically sized package than the project watch. The timing bezel is basically useless for the decompression schedules used for saturation diving but could be handy for all the regular things we use it for. Plus it wouldn't be a dive watch without one.

It's a fallacy that the DSSD was derived from the DSSD Challenger watch.
I see that croping up here and there with the release of this new one.

Keep in mind the DSSD was a clean sheet design whitch was supposed to be made to a wearable size that was made available to the public in 2008.
Everything around that was purposely designed to enable the watch to go down 3900 metres + 25%, including the pressure test gear by COMEX to validate the waterproofness of the watch.
Rolex quickly put together the SS Challenger watch in a couple of months in order to meet a deadline for JC's decent to the bottom. In that regard, I believe the original Challenge watch was a bit of an afterthought on everybody's part in 2012 and an opportunity siezed at the last minute(so to speak) to capitalise on a marketing exercise that validated the earlier DSSD design architecture from 2008.
As such and interestingly, there are a couple of fundamental disconnects between this new Titanium watch and the original SS version that actually went to the bottom.
The decent to the bottom would've been the only possible opportunity to validate the waterproofness of the concept at that depth in 2012.
It sounds like Rolex has recently partnered with COMEX again to design and construct a new machine to test these Titanium watches.

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by wb55

I think they went for a no date as new ISO rules (I believe) mean each hour needs to be lumed (see all the new Seikos and their reason for the awful lume at 3 o'clock) and no Rolex model AFAI has a date window and lume next to it.

Was probably done to stick to the current design language although the chamfered lugs are a very nice return.

No Rolex divers are officially ISO certified as far as I know (and never have been), so I doubt that would be the reason.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Dirt

It sounds like Rolex has recently partnered with COMEX again to design and construct a new machine to test these Titanium watches.

Yes.

[Andad]

Originally Posted by padi56

Well in the dive chamber its just like small house and will have full lighting, clocks beds and many of normal surface items and not like a single diver decompression chamber, there could be as many as 6 or more divers all living in the chamber, in most cases say chamber attached to a oil rig. And when working in water divers mostly in contact by radio and have dive computers to tell them when to return to chamber .And the cal 3230 is exactly the same thickness as the cal 3325.

Peter is correct, there are numerous monitors checking and advising these divers of their status 24/7.

Any watch is superfluous.

[Andad]

Originally Posted by Dirt

There is that indeed, but can it be guaranteed as seals deteriorate over time.
Besides, it was a mystery as to why those in decompression weren't simply unscrewing the crown on their watch periodically(like when the date changed) and giving it a slight wiggle sideways to allow the Helium to burp past the deformation of the seals and out of the assembly, then screw the crown back down. Then again, maybe they already tried that and it didn't work out as planned because the heavy handed ones were at risk of bending the Winding stem, or were forgetting to screw the Crown back down then unwitingly smacking it against something and ending up in the same place anyway

I can see where trying to design an assembly that prevents Helium getting in altogether is problematic as there's no guarantee that the objective has been achieved between services as I would expect that all seals are routinely replaced. A poor installation or a faulty brand new seal would be difficult to detect without a dedicated Helium intrusion test, that was applied after servicing to be able to determine if the critical threshold for Helium intrusion was met (or not).
What of the added risk factors?
How complex would servicing become?
How long would the duration of the test be for?
How much would that add to servicing costs?

It's probably more practical to go with standard seals and accept that Helium is going to leech into the assembly and service as normal then simply test for water resistance as usual and let a simple valve of some description function as intended

Why are we discussing unscrewing the crown.

Don’t you understand that if Helium finds its way into the watch under high pressure through the crown seal with the crown screwed in it will find its way out the same way as the pressure on the outside reduces?

One more finger tight seal on the crown compared to the internal Triplock seals will make no significant difference.

The HEV is still the best approach to be sure that the watch is protected from damage during pressure reduction while decompressing.

Without an HEV, timing the pressure reduction would be difficult and will vary based on seal integrity and watch construction.

My 16600 is all that is required.