Careful with TRF Member SULIGEO / VRM Member agra1976 ***

[TimeToGo]

.
He was just banned on VRM for failing to refund misrepresented purchased goods.

I am sure this thread will get moved to the Watchout section but wanted to get this up front in the Vintage side in case you are currently transacting or considering a purchase with the member.

This is the TRF sale thread of the inserts purchased:

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=907978

VRM thread discussion:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vint...m-t273450.html

[swish77]

Good heads-up, thanks.

Just to be clear, these inserts were not aftermarket, as I understand it. There was misrepresentation over what models the inserts were for, which ain't good either, of course.

[hutch300]

I wonder if the OP on the VRF got his money back. Bummer to see this kind of thing.

[suligeo]

Is not really my thing to post chat-screenshots in public but it seems you need them to remember the truth;-) Ipost first and last time here to clarify.

I explained you before you purchased that the font color is bright champagne and send you lots of pics, in comparison with a NOS gold font insert so you see how faded it is.
Look at our chat conversation.
You bought them then. I can’t believe you expect silver font after I wrote you all clear.
I didn’t understand your show been surprised to get what I promised you.
You asked first lot price for 5 inlays, then all, then 3…. I don’t know what your intention is but I don’t mind anyway. You only seems to me very stressful.
After short discussion I accept to send back but I don’t accept that I sit on the shipping cost. I did nothing wrong and you should be glas to send back because… you and god knows. You disagree with it and start tell me lies like I promised you inlays were for steel 1680!! I never said this and why I should do?? Two times I gave you Chance to show me where I promised this but nothing.
Then you threaten me with VRM Moderator.

I must not take back because it’s nothing my fault. It was only a favor. But when you start with lies and threaten…. STOP!!

To Don, Moderator from VRM i explained short all and his answer „come on George shipping costs is not much and chair it“ NO I don’t accept this. It’s not the money but the principle!! I wrote to Don: „If buyers can do this easy without the seller did something wrong, then this forum is not a place where I want to offer again something. Please delete my account“

And of course it make sense. In this vintage thing where parts are faded grey, faded brown, dark blue, patrol blue or what ever, the buyer can always just send back and you loose everytime 50€ shipping even if you describe as best you can? You do it 3 times and loose fun to do it again. Before this happen I decide to delete there because this day will come for sure. That’s how people are when they can.

And it’s hard for people to say after 3 minutes thinking, ok It’s my fault. You choose this way, ignore what I wrote and try with lies and threaten to get your thing.

Wrong way E.

Be sure what you want in the future.

Have a nice life





https://www.instagram.com/vintage_georgex/

[swish77]

Well, that changes things, I think. There are lessons here for a buyer and seller.

A buyer should ask more and better specific questions. And a seller should be crystal clear about what watches/references for which the parts are intended.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by swish77

Well, that changes things, I think. There are lessons here for a buyer and seller.

A buyer should ask more and better specific questions. And a seller should be crystal clear about what watches/references for which the parts are intended.

I had a similar thought; it seems that communication could have been better on both sides.

[BigBlue1]

Im with you on Principal.

[330ci]

Meh. Paying return/ shipping seems pretty reasonable to me.


That is what this entire dispute is over no?

IBTL

[harry in montreal]

It’s an Intersting one. If the seller agrees to take them back, sounds good to me. The shipping is fair that the buyer absorb. I dunno. I’m used to paying for shipping on eBay. Seems like everyone needs to take a pause and share the cost.

[dhknola]

Looks like seller asked the buyer to pretty please look and confirm they are the right bezels.
Unless I am missing something, the 'beware of' should be the buyer in this case.

[joli160]

Arguing over a few bucks shipping costs and both parties upset in the process …
Storm in a glass of water over nothing.

Seller did all the right things imho

[hutch300]

I appreciate seeing this exchange. Pride seems to be in the way. Shipping could have been paid by either side or split to be fair. Hope this was sorted out. I think the community needs to hold buyers and sellers accountable to protect this special space we all enjoy.

[KY..]

Originally Posted by joli160

Arguing over a few bucks shipping costs and both parties upset in the process …
Storm in a glass of water over nothing.

Seller did all the right things imho

Originally Posted by hutch300

I appreciate seeing this exchange. Pride seems to be in the way. Shipping could have been paid by either side or split to be fair. Hope this was sorted out. I think the community needs to hold buyers and sellers accountable to protect this special space we all enjoy.

Agreed, split return shipping or buyer pays return shipping.
Providing and understanding expectations as buyers/sellers definitely matter...

[offrdmania]

Maybe I missed where the seller said the insert would fit a steel 1680?
I think that is what this entire thing is about. If the buyer has communication that the seller made this claim then its the sellers responsibility to take care of shipping. If the buyer only assumed, then its the buyers responsibility to ship the insert back at his expense. It is obvious that the seller is willing to refund once the insert is returned so I dont see a reason for the Beware post. It seems to me like the mods on VRM may have jumped the gun IMO

[tekno]

Paying return shipping isn’t bad after he told you they are champagne. “make sure this is what you want, they are champagne” he is looking at them in person, not in a photo. If these were not champagne wouldn’t they be much more?

Guys are using all different inserts on all different watches. I see what both are y’all are saying but I think this is a communication error.

I think the ad should say that they are faded/old gold/TT inserts. I could tell they were champagne but at a glance I can see where someone may be confused. I feel like he tried to warn you.


Photo below, how many pics had a SS insert next to the gold ones. I do see both points. These would be killer inserts for old gold 1680’s

[PVR]

You guys need to read the posts over on TRF. The buyer DID agree to pay to return the inserts, the seller refused and wanted the buyer to reimburse him for TOTAL shipping costs. That doesnt seem fair. Both guys should eat their respective shipping costs.

In addition, and regardless of our thoughts on the matter, the mods instructed the seller to issue a refund and he refused. Does it matter if they look gold or champagne or silver? If the mods (and even owner Eric Ku got involved) tell you that you have to refund or be banned do you choose to be banned?

"They are very bright champagne but far away from gold" How does one interpret that? If its far away from gold doesnt that mean its not gold? But the inserts clearly are gold and for gold watches not steel. Shouldn't he have stated that they are champagne but very far from silver? Meaning Not for steel? Far away from Gold means not for gold in my interpretation.

Finally, the silver one in that photo was apparently filed down and cannot fit in a bezel. What say you of that? Was that disclosed in the listing? There is a lot to the story that isn't posted here but is over there.

The seller should have issued a refund. 1. Because his ad indicated a refund if not happy. 2. Because it's the right thing to do in our community. 3. Because the mods instructed him to do so. 4. Because he was warned if he didnt he would be banned.

In the above posted photos, it looks to me that the insert is neither gold nor silver so, shouldn't the seller make a decision as to what he is selling? By omitting that information, if someone bought it thinking it was for a Gold watch they might be unhappy and if they bought it for a steel watch they might be unhappy. Omitting what reference a part is for only opens the door for confusion. Finally, another member had bought the same ones and HE ALSO returned them, so what does that say about the clarity of the listing and the ethics of the seller?

Come on man..

[MrChamfers]

Originally Posted by PVR

The seller should have issued a refund. 1. Because his ad indicated a refund if not happy. 2. Because it's the right thing to do in our community. 3. Because the mods instructed him to do so. 4. Because he was warned if he didnt he would be banned.

The ad indicated return if not genuine, it said nothing about being happy.

[suligeo]

This guy and his intention/reaction with lies and threaten has nothing to do with „community“. That’s poison for our community.

@PVD: What champagne means? It means champagne, so simple. Why someone should interprete „silver“?
There was never one word about silver or steel 1680! Never!!


This inlay doesn’t fit in a bezel?







https://www.instagram.com/vintage_georgex/

[KY..]

Again, the Captain said it best…
https://youtu.be/452XjnaHr1A
Lots of fights and wars over it throughout history.

[PVR]

SULIGEO: Can you please explain what watch a champagne insert belongs on? I have been collecting/trading for 20 years and I am unaware that Rolex made a champagne insert. So, please tell me what watch champagne inserts were made for. Not Gold and Black, Not silver and black.. Champagne and black.

I am also kind of offended that rather than coming out and saying "I never knew the insert was filed" or that "I never tried to install it to know if it fit" you actually double down and show the insert installed as if to say the buyer is lying.

You were banned and didnt return his money. Are you suggesting the pictures he posted on the forums were altered or that he actually filed down the insert intentionally to destroy it and make you look bad? Which is it?

I went on to this forum and took some screen shots. Now you got me on a mission :).

Forum Members: Do you not clearly see the bare metal aluminum on both the inner and outer circumference of the insert on his photos? The numbers are touching the edges! In addition, there looks like what appears to be remnants of GLUE on the backside on just the areas that would require glue to secure it to a bezel.

SULIGEO: In your photo of the insert installed in a bezel, was the insert glued in or did it snap in securely like it's supposed to. Please respond..

[Andad]

A strange situation.

[Dom9]

Quick one to say that I have dealt with @suligeo for a couple of inserts this year. Both appear genuine and I'm wearing a Tudor 9411 Sub on his blue insert as I type, perfect condition and snaps nicely.

Prices were good, the inserts were well packaged and delivered quickly.

The black service 5513 I purchased is a little small on the OD and doesn't snap, as detailed in a thread on here, but I didn't ask for measurements before purchasing and the deal was to return if not genuine. @suligeo and I discussed it, he kept comms open, and he even supported my thread on here. Couldn't ask for more 'after service' from a stranger on the web. I was happy to keep it as visible condition/authenticity were the most important factors to me.

Would happily recommend suligeo to others and buy from him again, but it's the same with every private, forum purchase; caveat emptor. Ask exactly the right questions you need the answers to.

A different situation, perhaps, but I've also done enough deals on the web to know you're accepting an element of risk going by pictures and communicating in different native tongues. @suligeo is one of the good guys in my humble opinion/experience.

[m j b]

Originally Posted by MrChamfers

The ad indicated return if not genuine, it said nothing about being happy.

Originally Posted by Dom9

@suligeo is one of the good guys in my humble opinion/experience.

Aside from the language issue, I can't help but wonder if this is what I call the Amazon effect, where we (Americans, usually) expect everyone to take everything and anything back for any reason, eat the shipping costs and provide full credit.

If the item is not as described, then I would expect the seller to reimburse the entire amount including shipping. If the item is as described but I don't like it or failed to ask enough questions or to examine the pictures thoroughly, then it's on me, the buyer, to eat all of the shipping costs, both ways.

IMHO.

[oysterfisher]

I usually wouldnt jump in such discussions but its a shame how a "serious" buyer, owning obviously a high value watch can react like that.
Guys, solve that issue in PMs and if the buyer is unhappy and the article was described as it is in this case, eat the XXX bucks for the shipping to you and back.
Sorry, but it seems like a small thing is getting airfilled to grow as big as possible.

He accepted a refund. So send this stuff back and get your money and next time ask and study before purchasing.

I dont understand why someone get banned for this reaction and why someone is in need to post this stuff from another forum here?!? - Maybe the IG generation posting everything for getting fame?!

Absolutely nonsense!

Sellers should be more "careful" with this kind of "serious" buyers!
If a forums seems to be a community, why are people having to post stuff like this visible for everyone?!

Maybe I am not intelligent enough to understand that kind of "buyers".

[PVR]

oysterfisher: your response seems logical but, I dont know if you are taking into account some details as you didnt address them.

The seller sold these to another member Roy who returned them for "not being bright enough for a steel insert". Roy is also German, so presumably even in German he was misled into thinking they were for steel models.

If the seller gets a complaint and then resells the same insert without editing his post, is it not fair to assume that there is confusion as to the model the insert belongs? Is it not also fair to assume that the seller would now know that the insert is definitively not for a steel watch and revise his listing? Wouldn't that be the proper thing to do?

"He accepted a refund. So send this stuff back and get your money and next time ask and study before purchasing. "

The buyer did agree to send it back for a refund and he also agreed to pay for the return shipping via Fedex at his expense. The sticking point was that the seller insisting on refunding him his $6000 LESS conversion fees from USD to Euro and back as well as shipping both ways. How is that a fair compromise? To me that is someone in control of your money and with the upper hand dictating the terms of a refund. Take it or leave it. Not the way it works.

Is anyone considering the decision by the mods who had access to both sides of the story and internal private messages? Are we now questioning not only the listing terms but also the common sense of the mods? The German seller was on TRF longer and had more posts than USA buyer and they still sides with the USA buyer.

"why someone is in need to post this stuff from another forum here?!?"

I think that Time to go did a service by cross posting this, I for one appreciate it as not everyone is on both forums and not everyone reads every post either. After reading the posts on both sites I would never do business with this seller, absolutely no way and I suppose if he saved just me from a bad deal I owe him a beer..

[suligeo]

@PVD: You do the same like your friend with lies, I don’t like this and nobody like that!!

One last time:

„Not being bright enough for a steel insert“ is only written in your Phantasie to get right in any way even with lies.
The right text you see in chat screenshot
„Steel and 1680“ is only in your and your friends mind.

About the first buyer: He knows me years, saw the inlays and bought them. He doesn’t look and understand what color they are, so he doesn’t asked me and I didn’t explain. And because my offer is not 100% clear( for me it is) he got straight the money back. I understand. The second buyer gets all explained and showed in many pictures what color they are.

What is striking about you is that you do not show any neutral consideration. Or did you come up with the idea of ​​asking your friend what he bought a champagne inlay for?
Sorry a champagne/black insert that is aftermarket? Because Rolex never produced this, right?

Childish and I‘m out here now.

Thanks for the other members to understand the point.


https://www.instagram.com/vintage_georgex/

[oysterfisher]

Originally Posted by PVR

oysterfisher: your response seems logical but, I dont know if you are taking into account some details as you didnt address them.

The seller sold these to another member Roy who returned them for "not being bright enough for a steel insert". Roy is also German, so presumably even in German he was misled into thinking they were for steel models.

If the seller gets a complaint and then resells the same insert without editing his post, is it not fair to assume that there is confusion as to the model the insert belongs? Is it not also fair to assume that the seller would now know that the insert is definitively not for a steel watch and revise his listing? Wouldn't that be the proper thing to do?

"He accepted a refund. So send this stuff back and get your money and next time ask and study before purchasing. "

The buyer did agree to send it back for a refund and he also agreed to pay for the return shipping via Fedex at his expense. The sticking point was that the seller insisting on refunding him his $6000 LESS conversion fees from USD to Euro and back as well as shipping both ways. How is that a fair compromise? To me that is someone in control of your money and with the upper hand dictating the terms of a refund. Take it or leave it. Not the way it works.

Is anyone considering the decision by the mods who had access to both sides of the story and internal private messages? Are we now questioning not only the listing terms but also the common sense of the mods? The German seller was on TRF longer and had more posts than USA buyer and they still sides with the USA buyer.

"why someone is in need to post this stuff from another forum here?!?"

I think that Time to go did a service by cross posting this, I for one appreciate it as not everyone is on both forums and not everyone reads every post either. After reading the posts on both sites I would never do business with this seller, absolutely no way and I suppose if he saved just me from a bad deal I owe him a beer..

PVR, thanks for your post. I have read the full posts, yes.
In the vintage world, things are not always the same. If they are faded from gold model (gold to a light champagne) its the matter of time. If they are faded from silver to champagne, its it as well.
There are people around, installing superdomes in 1680s, there are people around, installing 1675 faded inserts into 16750, there are people around, installing 5513 inserts in much newer 1680s or 5513s. Anyway. Everyone is able to do what he is in need to do. For sure not everything makes sense.
If The previous buyer dont like the color and returned cause he thinks they were from gold models, thats not bad at all. In the previous post the seller didnt mentioned a reference and didnt mentioned a "gold model " or a "steel model" history. As far as I understand, the private messages between the seller and the "new" buyer show that the seller clearly posted images next to "champagne/gold" ones.

Isnt it logic to charge the fees for converting? If you buy sth overseas and return after this and the currency lost X.XX percent, its not the sellers problem. Or would you start to cry when you got more money back than you paid?


For me the "new" buyer isnt a serious person and I totally dont understand a nonsense post on a second forum.

Regaring the update of the seller in this thread, I have seen many Vintage subs with any kind of fading. from white/grey to blueish/grey to dark unfaded. The sun and other circumstences like temperature, liquids, dirt, ... influence this colors.
And if someone says a "light champagne" written insert couldnt be genuine rolex, its a waste of time discussing with that person about vintage. He should buy his stuff from retailer, not wasting time of others and discussing about peanuts.

Its a shame how people think, how people react and how a "community" decides. And sadly the watchworld is getting more and more in this way. Sad!
Just my 2 cents.

[Easy Rhino]

Seems that there is quite a difference between attempted fraud as is being charged and miscommunication which seems to be apparent. It also appears that the entire dustup revolves around the return shipping costs, for which the degree of vitriol surely seems excessive. Am I just seeing this wrong?

[MrChamfers]

Originally Posted by PVR

oysterfisher: your response seems logical but, I dont know if you are taking into account some details as you didnt address them.

The seller sold these to another member Roy who returned them for "not being bright enough for a steel insert". Roy is also German, so presumably even in German he was misled into thinking they were for steel models.

If the seller gets a complaint and then resells the same insert without editing his post, is it not fair to assume that there is confusion as to the model the insert belongs? Is it not also fair to assume that the seller would now know that the insert is definitively not for a steel watch and revise his listing? Wouldn't that be the proper thing to do?

"He accepted a refund. So send this stuff back and get your money and next time ask and study before purchasing. "

The buyer did agree to send it back for a refund and he also agreed to pay for the return shipping via Fedex at his expense. The sticking point was that the seller insisting on refunding him his $6000 LESS conversion fees from USD to Euro and back as well as shipping both ways. How is that a fair compromise? To me that is someone in control of your money and with the upper hand dictating the terms of a refund. Take it or leave it. Not the way it works.

Is anyone considering the decision by the mods who had access to both sides of the story and internal private messages? Are we now questioning not only the listing terms but also the common sense of the mods? The German seller was on TRF longer and had more posts than USA buyer and they still sides with the USA buyer.

"why someone is in need to post this stuff from another forum here?!?"

I think that Time to go did a service by cross posting this, I for one appreciate it as not everyone is on both forums and not everyone reads every post either. After reading the posts on both sites I would never do business with this seller, absolutely no way and I suppose if he saved just me from a bad deal I owe him a beer..

Why are you saying the first buyer was misled ? there’s no evidence of that and that’s kind of inflammatory.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MrChamfers]

Maybe time to go hasn’t ever had any champagne??