Manufactor_sa decorates 15407 movements

[lucasalce]

I found it interesting that AP hires a sub-contractor to finsh their 15407 movements https://www.instagram.com/p/Cwe4AwUK...RlODBiNWFlZA==.

Looks like the people working on the movements orginally worked at AP but started there own company and AP continued to hire them.

I wonder if this youtube video from AP are the people working at Manufactor_sa.

As long as the final result is beautiful, I don't mind if work is done "in-house" or contracted out, but what do you guys think?

[In-N-Out]

Interesting. Nice find. Not sure how I should feel about this, but I would have preferred AP continued to make it “in house.” It’s kind of like apple where they don’t actually make anything but just procure everything from the outside and assemble their devices…doesn’t sound as attractive as AP owning the entire process

[yoast]

Originally Posted by In-N-Out

where they don’t actually make anything but just procure everything from the outside and assemble their devices…doesn’t sound as attractive as AP owning the entire process

This is pretty much 90% of the watch industry

[VogelPhoenix]

Originally Posted by yoast

This is pretty much 90% of the watch industry

Yeah, used to be 100% (ok, maybe 99.9%). It used to be (and with the exception of Rolex, who bought their suppliers, mostly still is) whatever is the opposite of "vertical integration".Cool current example are Anita Porchet, who has done enamel work for everyone or Décors Guillochés SA, who did some of the Code dials.

[VogelPhoenix]

Interesting. Didn't know this company existed - there's a bit more info on them here:
https://www.watchprosite.com/horolog...3681.13604526/

[squall1]

I'm actually proud that they support a school like this. Takes nothing away from anything for me. In-house is meaningless at these huge manufacturers these days, as well as most of the small and medium ones too. Craft is craft, makes no difference to me where it's done.

These brands need to support such enterprises or there will be no one left to do this type of work.

[In-N-Out]

Originally Posted by squall1

I'm actually proud that they support a school like this. Takes nothing away from anything for me. In-house is meaningless at these huge manufacturers these days, as well as most of the small and medium ones too. Craft is craft, makes no difference to me where it's done.

These brands need to support such enterprises or there will be no one left to do this type of work.

I understand your perspective, but I respectfully disagree. I most cases, what makes art actually "art" is not the painting itself, but the artist and the story behind the artist. many people have the artistic ability to create beautiful pieces of art, but they don't have the name, the recognition, the story behind their name. I think this analogy applies to watchmaking as well.

a painting is just canvas + oil....but with a name and story behind it, this "canvas + paint" is now considered art.

someone on another thread made a good post about all the brands under richemont and LVMH and how they are not as successful as AP, Rolex, Patek etc.

part of the reason is bc many of those brands don't have the story and "romance" behind their brands. and that's what people are looking for when it comes to art and timepieces such as the 15407, which is a beautiful piece of art.

no disrespect to china, but if an independent chinese watchmaker came out with an identical watch to the 15407 (or something on the same horological level), you can bet that it won't be widely accepted by many people. even if it was made in Switzerland, Japan, Germany...it's not the same as having over 150 years of history behind your brand like AP, a brand that has had over 100 years of history even before the RO...

in any case, obviously many people don't care too much about "in house movements" as evidenced by the 15202 still being an icon, but I would think there is still a cohort of clients that would still prefer a wholly made "in-house" watch since it appears that AP is headed in that direction for most of its pieces

[squall1]

[QUOTE=In-N-Out;12924476]I understand your perspective, but I respectfully disagree./QUOTE]

Likewise, no worries, it's an interesting topic and there's lots of gray here for people to formulate different POVs that make sense to them. There's romanticism in this arrangement for me in that high caliber students are doing the craft work nearby. Many will ultimately end up at AP doing bigger and better things, or doing amazing things on their own. If it was a sweatshop in China I'd feel differently.

[lucasalce]

Originally Posted by VogelPhoenix

Interesting. Didn't know this company existed - there's a bit more info on them here:
https://www.watchprosite.com/horolog...3681.13604526/

Amazing blog post. Very much the pinnacle of watch making school and companies.
Cool that Manufactor_sa can modify existing watches one haves like the IWC example shown.

[gretch6364]

Some people are good farmers and some are good winemakers. If you are not both, don't ruin your product by doing one not as well as the other.

[WatchEater666]

I have no problem with outsourcing, and I think everyone's obsession with being completely in-house is kind of silly...

[77T]

The skills of finishing metal are best concentrated in centers of excellence. This is just one example.

The skill in decorative horological artwork is displayed in miniature to the same degree a massive stained glass window adorns a church. The artist designs the motif, the worker executes.

The end result is a Maison who collaborated with best-in-class artisans to yield sublime results.

For example
https://www.vacheron-constantin.com/...onstantin.html


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[77T]

The opposite of a vertically integrated structure is often referred to as a "horizontal” or "decentralized" structure. Different parts of the Maison focuses on specialized functions, and managing an entire 3rd party value chain is the key competency required.


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[Reign]

Doesn’t bother me that much. Would I prefer it done in house, yes but it’s still made in Switzerland.

Folks still outsource enamel dials to Anita Porchet, does that make it less of a watch? Don’t think it does

[lucasalce]

Factory tour video where you can see them working on AP movements:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0zBCILNwyE&t=948s

[messikens]

Unfortunately not much to be done but to some extent it ruins the mythology of an inhouse watch and then it becomes a alippery slope...

So if the finishing isn't done in house, would it matter if it's done in China vs a little Swiss village over? How much would that ruin the reputation vs paying a CH company and keeping it quiet...?
I'd assume quality would be the same


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[Avs Fan]

Originally Posted by messikens

Unfortunately not much to be done but to some extent it ruins the mythology of an inhouse watch and then it becomes a alippery slope...

So if the finishing isn't done in house, would it matter if it's done in China vs a little Swiss village over? How much would that ruin the reputation vs paying a CH company and keeping it quiet...?
I'd assume quality would be the same


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Really interesting question.. I think it would matter, but I'm not sure I have an adequate defense for this answer...

[messikens]

Originally Posted by Avs Fan

Really interesting question.. I think it would matter, but I'm not sure I have an adequate defense for this answer...

Would love to hear from some folks on this. Since AP doesn't just do in-house movements (receives the movement from JLC and/or Piaget? Someone confirm?) and then outsources some finishing to the other firms, esp for one of the prized watches itself...

What's left? We had an outsourced design contest that was crowdsourced and the original design was done by Genta in the 70s...

Hate to see this become an Apple where the design language and desirability is maintained in Brassus (and maybe final assembly) and other items are just sourced as needed... Really puts a dent in the story IMO

[usmc_k9_vet]

Originally Posted by Avs Fan

Really interesting question.. I think it would matter, but I'm not sure I have an adequate defense for this answer...

I think it’s because the reason it matters is somewhat intangible. We are talking about romance and emotion here to a certain extent. How can that be measured beyond how it makes you feel? I suppose one way is, somewhat anyway, geographically. Watches made in Switzerland evoke a certain sense of romance and emotion in people. A watch made in China (for the most part, as I’m sure there are exceptions) does not.


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[VogelPhoenix]

Originally Posted by messikens

So if the finishing isn't done in house, would it matter if it's done in China vs a little Swiss village over?

Would matter to me - I stopped buying some fashion brands once they outsourced their production all over the world to save a few dollars on some exorbitantly priced products. I'm ok with the little Swiss village over.

[construda]

I don't think it's as big a problem as most seem to want to make it. The history of Swiss watchmaking is filled with skilled artisans who specialize in one particular aspect, rather than vertically integrated companies controlling the entire production. These guys being located in the Vale de joux right by AP is more important to me -- visiting the museum over there and seeing their massive "AP" family tree that includes many other non-Audemars or Piguet families shows how interconnected the whole industry is/was. The previous CEO of AP has the world's biggest collection of CH Meylan pocketwatches - not "AP" but made right there in Le Brassus (and on the family tree as well)

[VogelPhoenix]

Originally Posted by construda

I don't think it's as big a problem as most seem to want to make it. The history of Swiss watchmaking is filled with skilled artisans who specialize in one particular aspect, rather than vertically integrated companies controlling the entire production. These guys being located in the Vale de joux right by AP is more important to me -- visiting the museum over there and seeing their massive "AP" family tree that includes many other non-Audemars or Piguet families shows how interconnected the whole industry is/was. The previous CEO of AP has the world's biggest collection of CH Meylan pocketwatches - not "AP" but made right there in Le Brassus (and on the family tree as well)