Critique of Grand Seiko

[watchmainspring]

I am on team Grand Seiko and Seiko, but I have some feedback that I think will help the brand.

1. Make the Grand Seiko sport line smaller. These watches are massive! They cut out very interested and profitable segments that also have smaller wrists. The Grand Seiko sport collection is basically all oversized and is far from aligned with industry averages (in my rough assessment).

2. Improve the functionality of most of the Grand Seiko watches.
a.Allow micro adjustments on sport bracelets (or, rather, most or all GS bracelets)
b.Use discreet lume on some of the dressier watches (similar to Rolex’s Datejust and Day-Date).

3. Rework pricing. $79,000 for a SBGZ009 dress watch on a leather strap is aggressive and not even remotely close to similar models from GS's competition. The high price point on the SBGZ009 or the more jaw-dropping $250,000 price point SBGD209 have to be an anchor for other high-volume models, rather than a legitimate valuation of these luxury watches’ worth. On the contrary, these insane prices might be an attempt to (unsuccessfully?) strong-army Grand Seiko into the ultra-premium watch category. I applaud the attempt, but other watches, such as a $201,080 Patek Philippe 5160/500G comes across as a superior watch at a lower price. I could list countless other watches at a tenth of the price that are likely equally satisfying to most collectors.

4. Stop cannibalizing. Grand Seiko Sport and Seiko Prospex are extremely similar lines. Yes, the price points might differ by roughly one order of magnitude, but Seiko Prospex has to be cannibalizing some of the higher-priced Grand Seiko sport market. Maybe consider settling for something in the middle that can be more profitable and that likewise meets market demands more effectively.

4. Make Grand Seiko more desirable. Grand Seiko resale value is poor compared to Rolex, Omega, Patek, and other brands. Look closely at those marketing strategies and consider adapting. Improved product placement? Sponsor more sports ventures?

[AvGeek]

I would love all of their lines, not just the sport line, to be slimmed down. Take the famed Snowflake SBGA211G - at 12.5mm thick it's not the thickest watch out there, but slimming it down to 10-11 would do wonders on the wrist in my opinion. I just couldn't pull the trigger when I tried it on given the thickness.

[watchmainspring]

Originally Posted by AvGeek

I would love all of their lines, not just the sport line, to be slimmed down. Take the famed Snowflake SBGA211G - at 12.5mm thick it's not the thickest watch out there, but slimming it down to 10-11 would do wonders on the wrist in my opinion. I just couldn't pull the trigger when I tried it on given the thickness.

I agree. For comparison the 41mm Rolex Datejust is thinner at 12mm. I would also argue that 39mm or 40mm instead of the 41mm SBGA211G would offer better aesthetics. Grand Seiko definitely has the skill to make the case smaller or thinner, yet they didn't.

[Rrpdc]

Micro adjustment please GS !

[watchmainspring]

Originally Posted by Rrpdc

Micro adjustment please GS !

The SBGJ237 may be water resistant to 200m, but it gets cold at depth, even in tropical climates; thus, the depth rating is useless without a diving extension or adjustment. I had a hard time fitting my 116610 over a wet suit and the grand Seiko would be impossible.

[Fleetlord]

Full disclosure: I currently own (6) Grand Seikos

That being said, they will never gain high level desirability in the luxury space sharing essentially the same name as a $99 gold plated quartz watch @ JC Penny's.

They will attract horological enthusiasts and the such, but they're pricing themselves out of that level in pursuit of competition with the top luxury watch brands.

Not going to happen.

[minute_man]

Originally Posted by watchmainspring

The SBGJ237 may be water resistant to 200m, but it gets cold at depth, even in tropical climates; thus, the depth rating is useless without a diving extension or adjustment. I had a hard time fitting my 116610 over a wet suit and the grand Seiko would be impossible.

The sbgj237 may be 200m WR but it isn't a diver's watch any more than a Rolex (ot Tudor) GMT is. A diver's extension does not belong on their bracelets

On the subject now, I really wish GS continue as they do. They are improving their after sales services amd distribution network.
I further hope they remain a poor resale value and a great, feature rich, high quality owning experience without the baggage of Rolex.

[watchmainspring]

Originally Posted by minute_man

The sbgj237 may be 200m WR but it isn't a diver's watch any more than a Rolex (ot Tudor) GMT is. A diver's extension does not belong on their bracelets

That's fair. Maybe a micro-extension for comfort during long flights?

Originally Posted by minute_man

On the subject now, I really wish GS continue as they do. They are improving their after sales services amd distribution network.
I further hope they remain a poor resale value and a great, feature rich, high quality owning experience without the baggage of Rolex.

What's the benefit of poor resale value? Wouldn't that translate into reluctance for people to buy them? If a collector is rotating their collection, the loss hurts.

[1William]

Interesting points. The brand needs to focus on what it does best and improve on what they do not do well, bracelets and clasps. I do believe GS has begun to fade in the eyes of collectors. This is because of the number of models and variations in the market and the crazy number of releases. I like the brand but am full.

[minute_man]

Originally Posted by watchmainspring

That's fair. Maybe a micro-extension for comfort during long flights?


What's the benefit of poor resale value? Wouldn't that translate into reluctance for people to buy them? If a collector is rotating their collection, the loss hurts.

It's more of an exaggeration, in contrast to the "investment" allure of certain brand names.

About the micro adjustments, it's admittedly a good feature to have but somewhat overrated imho. So many watches out there, even high end ones which do not offer such feature and no one complains about...

[FloydRedford]

Originally Posted by Rrpdc

Micro adjustment please GS !

This


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[John Ryan]

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

Full disclosure: I currently own (6) Grand Seikos

That being said, they will never gain high level desirability in the luxury space sharing essentially the same name as a $99 gold plated quartz watch @ JC Penny's.

They will attract horological enthusiasts and the such, but they're pricing themselves out of that level in pursuit of competition with the top luxury watch brands.

Not going to happen.

I own several and tend to agree with you.

Do you think completely removing any reference to Seiko from new/updated branding and going by simply “GS” would help?

[airchitect]

Originally Posted by John Ryan

I own several and tend to agree with you.

Do you think completely removing any reference to Seiko from new/updated branding and going by simply “GS” would help?

Maybe Grand Epson? I kid, I kid


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[thegrandseirolexguy]

The MSRP on GS is ridiculous. It’s why I only buy GS preowned.


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[rolehex]

The only reason I do not currently own one is because I find them to be too thick. So that would be my only criticism.

[watchmainspring]

Originally Posted by 1William

I do believe GS has begun to fade in the eyes of collectors. This is because of the number of models and variations in the market and the crazy number of releases. I like the brand but am full.

Nike is making this mistake by flooding the market with so many variations of their sneakers. If Grand Seiko took and h. moser approach and limited production, it might work out in their favor.

Originally Posted by thegrandseirolexguy

The MSRP on GS is ridiculous. It’s why I only buy GS preowned.


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Originally Posted by rolehex

The only reason I do not currently own one is because I find them to be too thick. So that would be my only criticism.

46.4mm width is okay with you on the SBGC229?
If it was a 41mm chronograph, it could easily be less than 12mm thick. Instead it's 16.2mm thick.

[Michael1968]

Originally Posted by rolehex

The only reason I do not currently own one is because I find them to be too thick. So that would be my only criticism.

Same for me

[samson66]

Love the watches but why they continue to put out inferior bracelets and clasps is something I just don't understand. Their clasps feel like something that should be fitted on a standard Seiko and the lack of true on-the-fly micro adjustment is just not acceptable in 2024. And to me the one "signature" of the brand is the spring drive and the associated power reserve meter on the dial. Now they've started to remove this from newer watches. I know the PR indicator isn't everyone's cup of tea but it was something that was associated with the brand, like the cyclops on Rolex. I think removing it is a mistake.

Anyway, still love me SBGE253, and it's my one true travel watch, but no real intention of addeng any other Grand Seikos to the collection. The SD movement is an absolute marvel of technology and I plan to always keep one in my collection. I can take that watch with me on a 30 day cruise and know that when I get back it will be MAYBE a second off the true time. That's amazing.

[BSG75]

I was lucky to dial in a good fit with my SBGN029 bracelet, but for the life of me I can't understand why my Astron bracelet has an excellent taper and an on-the-fly adjustment with the clasp. Perhaps it's because the Astron bracelet is an integrated bracelet?

Still love GS and honestly don't care if some stranger thinks I picked it up on sale at JC Penney. I bought it for myself and not to impress someone else.

[nighthawk77]

I was close to buying the Skyflake and still may add to the collection further down the line but I hesitated for a number of reasons.

Firstly, it felt a little thick at ~13mm for what would be the dress watch of my collection. To put it into context my Polar is marginally slimmer than this.

19mm strap width also frustrating - I have a number of 20mm straps which would have worked perfectly.

Clasp on this gets a bad write up, though didn’t have enough time to play around too much. I have read it’s possible to modify the deployant clasp to a pin and buckle which I’d have likely done.

Long term reviews on the leather straps also concerned me - most users report that they swap these out as the OEM isn’t great. I can’t speak from experience on this.

In the end, I got the call for the DJ41, so this killed off my pursuit of the Skyflake. There are other models such as the seasons collection which I think are nice, but if I’m spending that much money on a watch then I expect the bracelet and clasp to be better.


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[emtee]

I own two GS and have managed to avoid the issues you describe by choosing wisely however pretty much agree with everything you say. There are so many models I have discounted due to the issue you mention.

The thickness, width and bracelet/clasp issues they really need to sort out on so many of their models.

I quite like the fact it says Seiko on the dial I just don’t want it to have any of the attributes of a cheap Seiko when I’m paying Grand Seiko money lol

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by BSG75

Still love GS and honestly don't care if some stranger thinks I picked it up on sale at JC Penney. I bought it for myself and not to impress someone else.

Exactly. This speaks volumes about a person’s knowledge of watches.

[mongrelnomoad]

Micro-adjust bracelets, more 36-38mm cases at or below 10mm thick with 100m+ WR. Oh, and make them all spring drive with the reserve indicator on the back please.

[watchmainspring]

Originally Posted by pickettt

Exactly. This speaks volumes about a person’s knowledge of watches.

I don't disagree. That said, there's a great deal of room for improvement. If they continue their current course, I fear they're in trouble.

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by watchmainspring

I don't disagree. That said, there's a great deal of room for improvement. If they continue their current course, I fear they're in trouble.

Perhaps, but conversely, wouldn't you say they're actually gaining steam relative to their past?

[Cru Jones]

I appreciate the great movements, excellent finishing, wonderful dials and relative anonymity. For me, the positives far outweigh the small areas for improvement. No watch is perfect.

[shammad10]

I appreciate some of their watches, others are too big. I wish they were thinner, if they were at 10-11mm Would probably by one.

I also wish they'd stop releasing so many limited editions/ country editions inspired by nature or whatever. It's just too much and decision fatigue really plays a part in stopping me buying one

[Panerai_Fan]

Love the GS GMT with the white dial.

[watchmainspring]

Originally Posted by pickettt

Perhaps, but conversely, wouldn't you say they're actually gaining steam relative to their past?

No doubt. But is it sustainable without adaptation? These cheapie bracelets and 46mm cases didn't seem to resonate.


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[thegrandseirolexguy]

Adding on to my earlier comment about the MSRP of GS being ridiculous, however, I do think the bracelet as it is is pretty good despite its lack of an on the fly micro adjustment feature. And besides, a micro adjustable link will soon be available from Steel Reef for GS.


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