What is this 16700? A Frankenwatch?

[502 to Right]

I'm on the hunt for a 16700 GMT Pepsi and ran across this today on Reddit. What the is this? 4.4 million serial number and seller says it's a 1976 watch? I thought 4.4 million serial numbers were for replacement mid-cases and had nothing to do with a specific year.

What movement would this watch have? Seller says a 1976 movement. So a 1575?

What is this watch worth? Or can you even tell what it's worth given its mystery composition?





Here's the link:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Watchexchan...wiss/#lightbox

And the description:

Up for sale is a Rolex GMT Master 16700 - Blue/Red - Pepsi - Swiss Only Dial

Watch has a 4.4xxxxx Serial Number (1976)

Watch was just freshly serviced and is running perfectly without issue. Sale includes watch, service pouch, and service card (06/2022). Overall in fantastic condition with minor, if any, hairlines on bracelet and case. Original 1976 4.4xxxxx movement with factory service case (16700), dial, hands, bezel and bracelet.

$9450 plus shipping

And a photo:

[CTech]

The case is a service replacement, but the seller has probably consulted one of the serial number charts and concluded incorrectly that it is a 1976 watch.

Clearly it cannot be so as the 16700 wasn't introduced until 1988.

As for the movement, value, etc., assuming it is a genuine 16700 with service parts, it should have a 3175 movement and it is about the same price as you could get a good original one from a dealer.

It's been for sale for almost a week now so it is clear there is little interest at the current price with the current incorrect description. With that knowledge I would suggest that it is also of little interest to a collector and it would be a better bet for a usable daily watch if it was priced around $7500 to $8000.

[502 to Right]

Originally Posted by CTech

The case is a service replacement, but the seller has probably consulted one of the serial number charts and concluded incorrectly that it is a 1976 watch.

Clearly it cannot be so as the 16700 wasn't introduced until 1988.

As for the movement, value, etc., assuming it is a genuine 16700 with service parts, it should have a 3175 movement and it is about the same price as you could get a good original one from a dealer.

It's been for sale for almost a week now so it is clear there is little interest at the current price with the current incorrect description. With that knowledge I would suggest that it is also of little interest to a collector and it would be a better bet for a usable daily watch if it was priced around $7500 to $8000.

Without major modifications do you know what movements would even fit in a 16700 case? Obviously the 3175 that it was designed for. Would a 3075 fit? 1575?

Unless the seller opens the case and confirms the movement it's quite the mystery box.

Also, the Swiss only dial suggests the dial is 1998ish, correct? Assuming the dial is genuine.

[Mark020]

Probably all service parts with original movement. I’d only be interested if it was very cheap which it is not

[Tools]

Originally Posted by 502 to Right

. . .

Also, the Swiss only dial suggests the dial is 1998ish, correct? Assuming the dial is genuine.

It is more likely that the dial is a service dial, just as the case is a service case. Swiss dials were used for a time after '99 as the Luminova service dial until depleted.

The watch is likely not a "Frankenwatch", it is probably a watch that has sustained use and damage that required the replacement of these parts. The only place you can get a service case is at an RSC.

Without the paperwork for that service you will not have the original serial to reference an approximate original build date. However, that is kind of irrelevant since the only thing left is whatever movement parts that were not replaced.

[502 to Right]

Originally Posted by Tools

It is more likely that the dial is a service dial, just as the case is a service case. Swiss dials were used for a time after '99 as the Luminova service dial until depleted.

The watch is likely not a "Frankenwatch", it is probably a watch that has sustained use and damage that required the replacement of these parts. The only place you can get a service case is at an RSC.

Without the paperwork for that service you will not have the original serial to reference an approximate original build date. However, that is kind of irrelevant since the only thing left is whatever movement parts that were not replaced.

The seller does include a Rolex service warranty card dated from 2022. I assume all this work was done at that time.

Personally, I'm not opposed to service parts as the 16700 I'm planning to get would be for daily wear. But I need to be certain what I'm getting and that it's fairly priced.

[Tools]

Originally Posted by 502 to Right

The seller does include a Rolex service warranty card dated from 2022. I assume all this work was done at that time.

Personally, I'm not opposed to service parts as the 16700 I'm planning to get would be for daily wear. But I need to be certain what I'm getting and that it's fairly priced.

Indeed, nothing wrong with a properly rebuilt watch. Too many seem to believe that they need their Rolex to be unmolested and original in every aspect, ant that just isn't practical except for the hard-core collector who will never actually wear their pieces.

Value will be less than a mint original, but higher than an abused one. As long as you and the seller are in agreement, it's an excellent example.

[Dan S]

Obviously the seller doesn't know what he has, so it's up to you to make an offer based on your best guess. If you are interested, make an offer assuming it's all service parts.

[502 to Right]

Originally Posted by Dan S

Obviously the seller doesn't know what he has, so it's up to you to make an offer based on your best guess. If you are interested, make an offer assuming it's all service parts.

In my case the offer is zero. There are too many red flags with this seller and watch. If this was a $300 Seiko it might be a different matter.

[Mark020]

Don’t think there are too many red flags. Simply a - basically - completely new watch with a recently serviced movement

[502 to Right]

Originally Posted by Mark020

Don’t think there are too many red flags. Simply a - basically - completely new watch with a recently serviced movement

I guess we have differing views on red flags. I have no idea what movement is inside the watch. And the seller clearly doesn't know what it is. Or doesn't want to say. Even at $7,000 that's well beyond my comfort zone.

[0nly5iv3Digits]

This is a strange one

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by 502 to Right

I guess we have differing views on red flags. I have no idea what movement is inside the watch. And the seller clearly doesn't know what it is. Or doesn't want to say. Even at $7,000 that's well beyond my comfort zone.

I guess everything has a different level of risk tolerance, but with a 2022 Rolex service card, I don't think I would be concerned. To me, it seems pretty clear what you are looking at.

[PaulMiami]

Great looking watch, recent RSC service, new real Rolex case. Personally I prefer these older Rolex to the newer ones. If you can get it at a reasonable price and you like how it looks, then why not buy it?

[502 to Right]

Originally Posted by Dan S

I guess everything has a different level of risk tolerance, but with a 2022 Rolex service card, I don't think I would be concerned. To me, it seems pretty clear what you are looking at.

Originally Posted by PaulMiami

Great looking watch, recent RSC service, new real Rolex case. Personally I prefer these older Rolex to the newer ones. If you can get it at a reasonable price and you like how it looks, then why not buy it?

The seller doesn't even know what movement is in it. Would you take that roll of the dice for several thousand dollars? If so, great. But I'm not doing it.

I constantly see on this board "buy the seller." Well here the seller is either ignorant or not honest about what the watch is. That's not someone I want to give my money to.

I posted this to see if I was off base thinking this was not a 1976 watch. I wasn't.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by 502 to Right

The seller doesn't even know what movement is in it. Would you take that roll of the dice for several thousand dollars? If so, great. But I'm not doing it.

I constantly see on this board "buy the seller." Well here the seller is either ignorant or not honest about what the watch is. That's not someone I want to give my money to.

I don't find service watches appealing, but if I liked the watch and could buy it at a good price ... sure, I'd buy it. I don't see as much risk as you do, and you are obviously more risk averse than I am. If I passed up every watch from an ignorant seller, I would have missed out on some of my best purchases. "Buy the seller" is a stupid slogan and only useful for novices who can't evaluate watches, IMO. In actuality, the seller is soon forgotten and you are buying the watch.

If you are very risk averse and you feel the need to dot every "i" and cross every "t" before buying, then buy from a dealer and pay a premium. They will accept returns and offer a warranty. When buying from a private seller, you can often get a better deal and find watches that haven't been tampered with, but you have to use your knowledge, common sense, and accept some risk. I have bought dozens of watches that way.

[502 to Right]

Originally Posted by Dan S

I don't find service watches appealing, but if I liked the watch and could buy it at a good price ... sure, I'd buy it. I don't see as much risk as you do, and you are obviously more risk averse than I am. If I passed up every watch from an ignorant seller, I would have missed out on some of my best purchases. "Buy the seller" is a stupid slogan and only useful for novices who can't evaluate watches, IMO. In actuality, the seller is soon forgotten and you are buying the watch.

If you are very risk averse and you feel the need to dot every "i" and cross every "t" before buying, then buy from a dealer and pay a premium. They will accept returns and offer a warranty. When buying from a private seller, you can often get a better deal and find watches that haven't been tampered with, but you have to use your knowledge, common sense, and accept some risk. I have bought dozens of watches that way.

If I could personally inspect the watch and, better yet, have a watchmaker open it to confirm the movement number and authenticity, I wouldn't be concerned. I've purchased many watches from private sellers but nothing that has this combination of price, weird description, and number of post-original parts.

[996marty]

It all comes down to if you are happy with the parts that have been switched out against the price. If this is a watch that Rolex have looked at then surely that lowers the risk? And if that asking price could be lowered with an offer that could be a nice daily

[Mark020]

Originally Posted by Dan S

I guess everything has a different level of risk tolerance, but with a 2022 Rolex service card, I don't think I would be concerned. To me, it seems pretty clear what you are looking at.

For me as well. Again: if you can live with the service everything and the price is right....

[ronricks]

The only red flag is the seller doesn’t know it’s a service case. I would only buy at a deep significant discount as service case destroys value and collectibility of the watch.

[Andad]

Originally Posted by ronricks

The only red flag is the seller doesn’t know it’s a service case. I would only buy at a deep significant discount as service case destroys value and collectibility of the watch.

Seller states ‘factory service case’.

If the better price can be negotiated it would be ok.

[ronricks]

Originally Posted by Andad

Seller states ‘factory service case’.

If the better price can be negotiated it would be ok.

Yet he tries to date it to '1976' which is impossible. Service case watches are worth about half market value. There is no shortage of non service case 16700's out there that have correct dials, hands, etc. this watch has zero collectible value etc. None.

[502 to Right]

Originally Posted by ronricks

Yet he tries to date it to '1976' which is impossible. Service case watches are worth about half market value. There is no shortage of non service case 16700's out there that have correct dials, hands, etc. this watch has zero collectible value etc. None.

Exactly.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by ronricks

Yet he tries to date it to '1976' which is impossible. Service case watches are worth about half market value. There is no shortage of non service case 16700's out there that have correct dials, hands, etc. this watch has zero collectible value etc. None.

For my own use, I agree, and for that reason I'm not even really interested in this reference. But the OP specifically indicated that he is not concerned about collectible value. Just looking for a 16700 to wear daily at a fair price.

Originally Posted by 502 to Right

Personally, I'm not opposed to service parts as the 16700 I'm planning to get would be for daily wear.

[502 to Right]

Originally Posted by Dan S

For my own use, I agree, and for that reason I'm not even really interested in this reference. But the OP specifically indicated that he is not concerned about collectible value. Just looking for a 16700 to wear daily at a fair price.

I did say that. I'm revising my position though. I always think I'm never going to sell the watch I just bought. And invariably I do. I need to think more like the next buyer than what I find acceptable about a watch. And all this post-original work takes this watch out of consideration for many people looking for a 16700.

Thankfully this one time in my life I'm going to take my sweet time finding the right piece.

And I do appreciate the expertise of this board.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by 502 to Right

I did say that. I'm revising my position though. I always think I'm never going to sell the watch I just bought. And invariably I do. I need to think more like the next buyer than what I find acceptable about a watch. And all this post-original work takes this watch out of consideration for many people looking for a 16700.

TBH, I think that's a realistic perspective. If you can afford it, it's worth paying extra to get a better watch that will be easier to upgrade in the future, if you so choose. It's no fun to sell a watch that isn't desirable.

[502 to Right]

Originally Posted by Dan S

TBH, I think that's a realistic perspective. If you can afford it, it's worth paying extra to get a better watch that will be easier to upgrade in the future, if you so choose. It's no fun to sell a watch that isn't desirable.

Yes. I'm willing to pay extra for a model without warts, so to speak.

I originally posted this thread not because I wanted to buy this specific watch, but because I was perplexed by the description and knew the experts here would sort it out.

[502 to Right]

And the listing has been deleted...

[omar-rye]

I didn’t read the full thread, but the first thing I noticed when looking at the photo is that the cyclops magnification is off.

[502 to Right]

Originally Posted by omar-rye

I didn’t read the full thread, but the first thing I noticed when looking at the photo is that the cyclops magnification is off.

Interesting...