Vintage Collectors preference ?

[greekbum]

I was having a good conversation with a friend of mine today about a watch he was considering.(1962 5512) I would like the forums opinion on this matter.

To me when somebody is collecting and paying top$ for a rare watch it has to be just that.
My friend is considering a watch that the case back is engraved, the band, crystal, bezel, insert, crown are all newer style service replacements and are not period or model number correct to the watch.
It has no box or papers but was consistently serviced by RSC
The seller is asking for top dollar and claims 100% Rolex authentic.
Authentic it is but original it isn't most of the parts are RSC replacements and not period correct.
So original it isn't so what is the proper word for a watch like this in the collectors language ?
I told my friend the watch has a nice case ,hands, dial, movement everything else is wrong and you will need to go and find them to make the watch IMHO the collectible watch you are wanting and paying for.
It is IMHO a nice watch but from a collectors standpoint it is not original anymore.
It will cost time and money to find the original period correct parts and this should be reflective in the price.
If given the choice for the same top$ would you desire the watch with the updated parts or an original example?
Do you feel the original period correct watch deserves to be worth more than the other watch?
Thanks my advise to my friend was for the same $ or even more go original period correct.

[Ivan]

I'm new to the vintage arena but I would much rather have a watch in orignal condition. Part of the reason that I was drawn to vintage watches was the fact that there is so much history and charm that goes along with something from 25 to 40 years old. I wish that prices for the older peices without original parts better reflected that but it appears there is very little difference pricewise. Obviously people are out there buying the updated vintage models otherwise the market would push down the prices for those.

[sakuraba]

I'd spend the extra coin for an unadulterated sample.

[sleddog]

Originally Posted by sakuraba

I'd spend the extra coin for an unadulterated sample.

Agree!!!! Unchanged from original parts is what I would consider true vintage!!!......If the price for the reworked 5512 is good I might think ablout it though........

[mcjp6]

Originally Posted by greekbum

Do you feel the original period correct watch deserves to be worth more than the other watch?.

Yes. - To most collectors.

If you were to have two models say of 5512, and one is with 100% original to that watch parts and one is full of original but later service replacements IMHO the first watch would fetch more with most collectors.

But, there are some and I've seen a couple of examples here on TRF when say a vintage 5513 for example has been sent to RSC and luminova hands and dial put on. The watch looks great and functions well, doing what it was intended to do. The watch still has value but what that is depends on what someone will pay for it.

So I guess the value all boils down to demand and there probably is more demand for 100% original watches than those with replacements parts.

IMO

[quito]

Buy as original as possible for vintage, otherwise tell him to buy a 16610 with lug holes for less than half the price.

[fusionstorm]

Tell him vintage timepieces are just like vintage cars. Numbers matching, original everything cars go for much more than their ilk that have had parts replaced with "factory authentic" (but not original to the specific car) parts.

With the market in a state of flux, I'm sure he'll be rewarded if he waits for a better specimen. Seems to be a lot of activity out there with collectors & dealers divesting themselves of product to free up cash......

[Beaumont Miller II]

I brought this up earlier, and it is a problem that I have been seeing a lot lately. To me original means original to the watch when it was new. Authentic means that is a true rolex part or parts. Service dials are not original. Luminova hands are authentic but certainly are not original on vintage rolex watches. If you desire a vintage 1680 Submariner and absolutely need to tell time in the dark with your watch then you may need a luminova service dial. However, I would not expect to pay top dollar for that watch. The person that expects to get top dollar for that watch is trying to recoup their money spent on the service. I think you advised your friend well.

[Brushpup]

Well that is too bad. If he is looking for a completely orginal watch stem to stern this is not the one.

Unfortunate about the engraving too.
Not such a bad thing in my mind but when its' on such a collectable piece it is unfortunate.

Sad too that the watch had to wind up with service parts, but this is natural from damage or it falling into the wrong hands even though the intentions are in the right place. Wish it could have gotten the NOS parts it needed to be "right".
It would be a great watch to wear and is still, but sounds like your buddy want's something 100% factory. IMO the dealer should see this and come down on the price. I collect other things where the same things are desired and orginality is key.

Thanks for sharing the story Nikos, always enjoy them!

[DadsWatch72]

Here is a link from the Double Red Sea Dweller website. It contains a list of things to consider for collecting Rolex Watches. I think your going to find opinions vary on what is acceptable for a vintage watch. It all depends on what your looking for. Their quote says it best...."Some people might find other issues are more important to them, so your mileage will vary". I think all would agree on #1---Condition is Everything.

http://doubleredseadweller.com/collecting.htm

[Spark]

Well personally and for what it's worth my opinion is this.
If the dial and hands are original and the case is thick and sharp they are my main criteria.
On a Sub for example a nice faded bezel insert or an earlier service replacement with tritium dot are a bonus.
I would prefer an original bracelet, but this would not be a deal breaker.
I would however not use 9315 regularly as I really dislike the cheapness and weight of the folded link bracelets (personal choice).
As for Crown/Stem Tube and crystal etc.... I am more than happy for these to be service replacements as IMO they are changed to preserve the watches water tightness, which in turn preserves the dial, hands and movement.
If the watch is going to be a safe queen then a 40 year old crown /seal, stem tube and possibly crazed crystal would be fine, but I prefer to wear my watches so I like to be content that they are hermetically sealed to outside contaminants.
New old stock tropic domed crystals etc.. are a nice touch, but if a watch has a Rolex service history, not going to be fitted.
Just my personal feelings

[MonsterRavingTrader]

have been pondering this since i joined this forum for more info. i think id rather original even at a premium price. im looking for an early 70s watch my DOB and think original would be well worth the $. after all rolex is not just a watch.
the info on this forum is simply amazing great work to all.

[Brushpup]

Originally Posted by DadsWatch72

Here is a link from the Double Red Sea Dweller website. It contains a list of things to consider for collecting Rolex Watches. I think your going to find opinions vary on what is acceptable for a vintage watch. It all depends on what your looking for. Their quote says it best...."Some people might find other issues are more important to them, so your mileage will vary". I think all would agree on #1---Condition is Everything.

http://doubleredseadweller.com/collecting.htm

Yes condition is very important in any case, but in this one I think we are talking more about orginal versus replaced parts.

A lot is lost when things get changed, especially when they are not as the watch had to start out with. Crystals, inserts, etc. As it is in this case. Same is true in the Military collecting field as orginal, un-serviced/modified items are exceptionally rare, making them more special to individuals and collectors alike.

[mcjp6]

Originally Posted by MonsterRavingTrader

have been pondering this since i joined this forum for more info. i think id rather original even at a premium price. im looking for an early 70s watch my DOB and think original would be well worth the $. after all rolex is not just a watch.
the info on this forum is simply amazing great work to all.

Good luck with your search and welcome to TRF.....

[Dan Pierce]

I try for the best of both worlds. I agree original parts are always best when investing in vintage. However, if I can, for example, source a new and authentic bezel insert from my watchmaker I'll do it as having both would increase overall value.
Vintage watches with original parts, in closest to original condition, will always command a higher value.
dP

[greekbum]

Originally Posted by Beaumont Miller II

I brought this up earlier, and it is a problem that I have been seeing a lot lately. To me original means original to the watch when it was new. Authentic means that is a true rolex part or parts. Service dials are not original. Luminova hands are authentic but certainly are not original on vintage rolex watches. If you desire a vintage 1680 Submariner and absolutely need to tell time in the dark with your watch then you may need a luminova service dial. However, I would not expect to pay top dollar for that watch. The person that expects to get top dollar for that watch is trying to recoup their money spent on the service. I think you advised your friend well.

I agree but there seems to be some confusion and I only see or hear this from the people that have a questionable watch (questionable meaning there is doubt as to its originality basically )I am only talking about watches that are declared or described as rare and claimed original. An upgraded watch is just that.I have no problem with any of them but it seems when its time to show or sell everybody's watch is 100% original these days. This topic is geared at late 50's to early 80's collectible Rolex Sport model watches and is in no way meant to discredit anybody's watches.I own watches that are 100% original and I own watches that are full of service replacement parts also.

[garyk]

I'm new here and don't know enough about the subject but, life's short, buy what makes you happy....

[Dan Pierce]

Originally Posted by garyk

I'm new here and don't know enough about the subject but, life's short, buy what makes you happy....

And timeless advice at that!
dP

[snow_rocks]

Top dollar = original parts!

Imagine buying a '60s muscle car that had a crate 350 motor in it, and paying top dollar!

You can rebuilt either, but the #s won't match!

[Some Pair]

Originally Posted by snow_rocks

Top dollar = original parts!

Imagine buying a '60s muscle car that had a crate 350 motor in it, and paying top dollar!

You can rebuilt either, but the #s won't match!

[Brushpup]

Nice muscle Rick!!

[springer]

Greek, I think you and others covered it very well and agree with your assessment - replacement parts do not make it original and should be reflected in the price. Based on your description of this 5512, it should be valued substantially lower. What is the value in a vintage watch, if much of it has been replaced with newer parts? You might as well purchase a newer Submariner which will have more value in the long term.

[mgm]

Originally Posted by snow_rocks

Top dollar = original parts!

Imagine buying a '60s muscle car that had a crate 350 motor in it, and paying top dollar!

You can rebuilt either, but the #s won't match!

Forgive me putting in my humble oar here. The above applies to American cars, but not to cars manufactured where numbers weren't matching to begin with. Mercedes, for instance, would not be much impacted by having another of the same engine in the car. Rebuilt, with new parts, would be worth far more than an original worn out engine, given that a serious engine rebuild will run past $30,000 in any 1950's 300 series. There are things one can do that are mistakes on collectible cars, but for the most part maintenance and replacement parts are considered a great good. A car may fetch a high price being original with very low miles, but any buyer is immediately going to engage in very expensive restoration to bring the poor girl back into reliability. Low miles are a red flag when buying an old car.

There is a continuum, from absolute originality to non-standard, somewhere along which is the most desirable piece for each individual buyer. But still and of course, highest dollar goes to the rarities.

[mike]

It's a great question that has strong views on both sides. A watch is original only once and in that circumstance one that is original and pristine will always carry the higher value.

It must be considered though that an original 40+ year old watch runs a risk in wearability. Acryllic can crack over the years, seals wear out exposing the dial, hands, movement to moisture. Even certain bezels are at risk. I'm aware of a couple who will not wear their bakelight bezel pieces for fear of damage. (though that may a different situtation).

As to engraving,...it might depend on what was engraved or who's name was engraved.

I do think the unmolested case/lugs example carries a greater value than one that has seen polish.

[Some Pair]

Originally Posted by mgm

Forgive me putting in my humble oar here. The above applies to American cars, but not to cars manufactured where numbers weren't matching to begin with. Mercedes, for instance, would not be much impacted by having another of the same engine in the car. Rebuilt, with new parts, would be worth far more than an original worn out engine, given that a serious engine rebuild will run past $30,000 in any 1950's 300 series. There are things one can do that are mistakes on collectible cars, but for the most part maintenance and replacement parts are considered a great good. A car may fetch a high price being original with very low miles, but any buyer is immediately going to engage in very expensive restoration to bring the poor girl back into reliability. Low miles are a red flag when buying an old car.

There is a continuum, from absolute originality to non-standard, somewhere along which is the most desirable piece for each individual buyer. But still and of course, highest dollar goes to the rarities.

Easy to feel your way Greg, as the Auto's you mention don't have the numbers.
BUT LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING: IF THOSE EURO MODELS WERE CATEGORIZED AS THE U.S. MODELS ARE, YOU'D BE WHISTLIN' A DIFFERENT TUNE WHEN IT COMES TO VALUE I ASSURE YOU.

As far as Low mileage a Red Flag? It depends on the overall maintnance. Updating Fluids, Tires, etc. Never necessarily would it require an expensive restoration. Seen it & lived it several times.

We'll have to agree to disagree,
...and I for one am glad the European made ROLEX timepiece is numbered for both model and age group.

[eparisini]

I prefer vintage watches as new as possible, like NIB, I don't need B&P

[mgm]

Originally Posted by Some Pair

BUT LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING: IF THOSE EURO MODELS WERE CATEGORIZED AS THE U.S. MODELS ARE, YOU'D BE WHISTLIN' A DIFFERENT TUNE WHEN IT COMES TO VALUE I ASSURE YOU.

Well, isn't that a big IF!

I hadn't disagreed about anything... yet.

[Boopie]

I agree philosophically with having as many original, vintage parts as possible...but I am curious as to whether such a watch would be as waterproof and shockproof as a modern watch, so that it can be worn on a daily basis.

I have a vintage (1940s) Movado that I had cleaned, a new acrylic crystal put on, and a new band...but changed nothing else. While I love the watch, it is not waterproof or shockproof, and as such it doesn't get much wrist time with me. I have little kids, and I am a very active person, so my Rolex is perfect for the task. I don't, for example, take off my Rolex when I'm hand-washing dishes, or doing some other task that might be tough on other watches.

[Lol-x]

Originally Posted by mike

A watch is original only once and in that circumstance one that is original and pristine will always carry the higher value.

Wise words, worth remembering

[Tombstone]

I would love to add a few vintage Rolex watches to the collection. I just don't know who to buy from. Many of my friends who bought "vintage" were taken. Any clues on a good vintage dealer? Thanks